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BA to lease 9 Qatar A320s + crews during strike

BA to lease 9 Qatar A320s + crews during strike

Old Jun 24, 17, 7:03 am
  #106  
 
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Whether the EU is going to be happy if the 7 days is used up or extended by non EU nationals repeatedly crewing flights in and out of The UK within Europe is likely to lead to some "deliberation".
It has nothing to do with the EU.

The decision whether to allow the wet leasing arrangement is for the CAA to take. The decision on any work visas (in the event that they are required) is for the UK Government to take.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 7:21 am
  #107  
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Originally Posted by simons1 View Post
It has nothing to do with the EU.

The decision whether to allow the wet leasing arrangement is for the CAA to take.
Yes, in practice, although to be fair the restrictions on wet leasing from non-EU airlines do originate in EU law (EC 1008/2008).
8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 7:33 am
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
Yes, in practice, although to be fair the restrictions on wet leasing from non-EU airlines do originate in EU law (EC 1008/2008).
8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.
Also note the use of the word 'should' rather than 'must'.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 7:39 am
  #109  
 
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Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
Yes, in practice, although to be fair the restrictions on wet leasing from non-EU airlines do originate in EU law (EC 1008/2008).
8. In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease, these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market [...]
The effect of this recital is spelt out in Article 13.
Maybe but as you confirm the decisions on whether to permit the leases, and the handling of any immigration issues, are solely matters for the CAA and UK authorities.

That being the case the answers to Modo's points about whether the EU is going to be happy, and it leading to some "deliberation" are effectively a) it's largely irrelevant whether the EU is happy or not, and b) it won't.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 7:42 am
  #110  
 
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Duplicate
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Old Jun 24, 17, 7:51 am
  #111  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA View Post
Hi Karfa

Yes the rules changed around cost sharing private flights recently allowing flights to be advertised.

The rules are that the total cost of the flight can be shared equally amongst all people on the flight.

So it is a private flight and not commercial hence you do not need a ATPL/CPL and AOC.

Best regards


Lufty
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Old Jun 24, 17, 9:21 am
  #112  
 
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Originally Posted by Jumbodriver View Post
​​​​
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2227.pdf

​​​​​Sorry if the link doesn't work.
Works just fine here, thanks ^

For those of us supporting the strikers, is there any point in responding to this response for consultation or is it effectively a done deal?
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Old Jun 24, 17, 9:42 am
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post
Also note the use of the word 'should' rather than 'must'.
Originally Posted by 0191 View Post
Works just fine here, thanks ^

For those of us supporting the strikers, is there any point in responding to this response for consultation or is it effectively a done deal?
I doubt anyone has ever written in before, so it'll probably get plenty of attention
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Old Jun 24, 17, 9:44 am
  #114  
 
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For those of us supporting the strikers, is there any point in responding to this response for consultation or is it effectively a done deal?
I'm not entirely sure but would be very surprised if the social consequences for the strikers were an area for consideration in the test as to whether the lease should be approved or not.

The best argument against it would be that there is capacity within the EU that could do this work. But there probably isn't in summer and certainly isn't from a single source...and even if there was a well written contract spec will get round it to make it look like there isn't.

So all that said. it's almost certainly a done deal.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 9:45 am
  #115  
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Originally Posted by tinkicker View Post
I'm not entirely sure but would be very surprised if the social consequences for the strikers were an area for consideration in the test as to whether the lease should be approved or not.

The best argument against it would be that there is capacity within the EU that could do this work. But there probably isn't in summer and certainly isn't from a single source...and even if there was a well written contract spec will get round it to make it look like there isn't.

So all that said. it's almost certainly a done deal.
You could argue that a small strike does not qualify as an exceptional circumstance.

The test is—
3. A Community air carrier wet leasing aircraft registered in a third country from another undertaking shall obtain prior approval for the operation from the competent licensing authority. The competent authority may grant an approval if:
[...]

(b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled:

(i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval may be granted for a period of up to seven months that may be renewed once for a further period of up to seven months;
I can't really imagine that a few emails would derail this. But they asked for comments so why not send in a short paragraph.

Last edited by Calchas; Jun 24, 17 at 9:53 am
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Old Jun 24, 17, 10:02 am
  #116  
 
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Originally Posted by Calchas View Post
You could argue that a small strike does not qualify as an exceptional circumstance.
Unhelpfully the relevant regulation 1008 of 2008 doesn't really define "exceptional" apart from at this paragraph...

these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the Community market, and they should be strictly limited in time
So one interpretation is it's not the need to wet lease that is "exceptional" it's the lack of a community aircraft to lease that is the exception and thus the lease is for a very short period. The reason for needing to wet lease is irrelevant in that interpretation.

In the other interpretation: that it is the requirement that's exceptional well, it's not exactly equivalent but the EU regs specifically includes any industrial action when allowing passenger disruption claims to be dismissed for exceptional circumstances. So if I was the airline (and I'm not) I'd start the argument there.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 1:52 pm
  #117  
 
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I would guess that an objection from any available EU source of wet leased aircraft might be the most likely to give the CAA pause on this, rather than the input of consumers, Unite, or others.

A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.

Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
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Old Jun 24, 17, 3:19 pm
  #118  
 
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Originally Posted by makin'miles View Post
I would guess that an objection from any available EU source of wet leased aircraft might be the most likely to give the CAA pause on this, rather than the input of consumers, Unite, or others.

A company like Thomas Cook could likely make a decent argument that even if they had a single aircraft/crew available for a wet lease, that single aircraft should be used before Qatar Airways aircraft are used to meet BA needs.

Separately, it interesting that the comment period is open for ten working days from 22 June (to 5 or 6 July, depending on how you count), while BA is proposing to deploy the wet leases from 1 July.
I think thats kind of the point. Lease companies thrive in the summer by placing their aircraft on season long leases with a guaranteed amount of flying per week/month. The chances of a Thomas Cook/Jet2 etc having a spare (& crews) when they themselves lease to get through the summer is nil.

A simple google shows this as an example;

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/n...0s-this-summer

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-a321-3830.htm
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Old Jun 25, 17, 1:20 am
  #119  
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Summer schedules are the busiest for all carriers in Europe, its highly unlikely that there is any spare aircraft available for wetlease to BA. TK, or the ME3 on the other hand....
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Old Jun 25, 17, 1:58 am
  #120  
 
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I think we can safely make an assumption that BA attempted to get the wet leases from within the EEA like they have done on previous strikes, having not been able to do so, the case for exceptional circumstances within the EC directive appears met.

The choice of 2 months would appear to be proportional to cover the busiest months of the EU aviation calendar after which wet leases from within the EEA may be available (if not industrial harmony restored).

As much as we wish to support the hard working CC in their endeavour for fair pay and conditions; the CAA shouldn't be concerning themselves in industrial relations unless it impacts on safety or the consumer.

The wet lease would appear to ensure continuity for operations for the consumer whilst no doubt still impacting on BA's bottom line causing impact for Unite (the upfront cost and the risk of pax enjoying their experience and re-evaluating this into their future flight choices).

I doubt the CAA will not approve this request unless it could be proven that alternative EEA aircraft were available.

Last edited by navylad; Jun 25, 17 at 2:13 am
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