Upgrade question

Old Apr 26, 2017, 2:08 pm
  #16  
 
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Upgrade to Downgrade to Upgrade

Reminds me a recent BCN-LHR flight where I was upgraded at the gate to CE, downgraded after sitting in 1F just before door closed, then upgraded by Pursor/CSM back to CE, after door closed, to exit row 11A (yes CE went back to row 12).
Was a bit confused as a Oneworld Emerald and a BA nobody!
The new mugs are nice though...(It was freebie ticket which was maybe confusing not just me!!).
I prefer AA where you are likely to be upgraded, space available or by using the SWUs each year...why have empty cabins?
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Old Apr 26, 2017, 2:59 pm
  #17  
 
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The "why have empty cabins" question has already been answered perfectly by nux and fitch upthread, not sure why people keep asking it.

It's also not a great comparison between long-haul flights with upgrades on domestic American flights or other carriers. Completely different drivers and interests both commercially and in terms of the product and perception they want their brand to project.
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Old Apr 26, 2017, 5:02 pm
  #18  
 
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There is quite a few videos on youtube that go someway to explain the concept. Some are quite good, CNN had quite a good segment on Business Traveller some time ago (think it can be found on YT), with Quest doing it in his usual way, he's good at simplifying IMHO

I personally find airline pricing structure totally fascinating. Working in sales, I have usually always worked on cost plus agreed margins. So a model like this seems totally alien, particularly when a seat is a 'perishable' item as it were. However I totally understand an airlines reasoning.

The system is the main reason that all premium seats have not gone into a budget airline style price war. I wonder what would happen if a budget carrier launched a LH seat on the same level as the top carrier (minus IFE) but without all the lounge and premium food and extras. (i.e top rate hard product but no soft) Would it change the model..
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 1:30 am
  #19  
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Originally Posted by obduro
The "why have empty cabins" question has already been answered perfectly by nux and fitch upthread, not sure why people keep asking it.
I think that it reflects an expectation amongst some passengers who have not previously come across these discussions that if there is a seat in a higher cabin that would otherwise go empty, they should be entitled to be re-seated into it for some bargain price.

Which is not to criticise those who have such an expectation, because there are (shall we say) some cultural differences at work on the opposite sides of the Atlantic.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 2:59 am
  #20  
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I looked at the cabins before takeoff and confirmed when deplaning the large number of
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 4:56 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by JerseyJoe
I looked at the cabins before takeoff and confirmed when deplaning the large number of
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
Which of the american airlines offer free upgrades on international flights?

And/or do they suddenly open up all empty business class seats at T-24? again, internationally.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 6:06 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by nux
No there is not, and there is no reason to expect BA to open award seats on empty flights.
Let's just be clear that award seats are different from free upgrades. Award seats cost me a currency (Avios) whereas the later cost me nothing. I argue that it is in the airline's favor to get me to spend my Avios balance down, especially if it is at a less favorable exchange rate to the than I might otherwise get from whole reward flights.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 6:20 am
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by Leaping_Deere
I personally find airline pricing structure totally fascinating. Working in sales, I have usually always worked on cost plus agreed margins. So a model like this seems totally alien, particularly when a seat is a 'perishable' item as it were. However I totally understand an airlines reasoning.
It's fascinating, and there's a lot of psychology at play.

The current seat is perishable, but the one you'll buy next month isn't, nor the one after that. And if you let your high-tier FF members routinely get bargain upgrades to WT+/CW, then they stop routinely buying WT+/CW seats. You lose 200 on this empty seat, you gain 700 by persuading people to pay for the ticket they actually want next time.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 6:23 am
  #24  
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Originally Posted by dmp1991
Let's just be clear that award seats are different from free upgrades. Award seats cost me a currency (Avios) whereas the later cost me nothing. I argue that it is in the airline's favor to get me to spend my Avios balance down, especially if it is at a less favorable exchange rate to the than I might otherwise get from whole reward flights.
All very well, however as noted already BA (and many other European airlines) do not take the view that it is always in their favour to allow avios upgrades for all unbookee seats.

Also free status or miles upgrades are not really free, how many flights have you had to take to earn the avios, SWU, or GUF? There is always a cost even if it is not directly incurred on actioning the upgrade.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 7:08 am
  #25  
 
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Next time the OP should walk into CW and stretch his legs

I think BA's upgrade system is pretty good actually and makes sense. Occasionally card holders will get an Opup, although I believe that's when the cabin they have booked into is oversold (though a more savvy FT'er will be able to clarify/confirm). I much prefer BA's system to the bid for an upgrade game that other carriers seem to play.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 2:02 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
Also free status or miles upgrades are not really free, how many flights have you had to take to earn the avios, SWU, or GUF? There is always a cost even if it is not directly incurred on actioning the upgrade.
If the point you're trying to make (not sure I've interpreted your sentence correctly) is that a free upgrade due to premium status is not really "free" to me, then I completely disagree. I did not spend any "thing" to get that upgrade. Yes, I had to earn the status somehow, but I didn't do that in return for that particular upgrade. Said another way, I don't acquire status solely to get a chance at a free upgrade every now and then and I doubt the majority of status passengers do that -- certainly not on BA where upgrades are very, very rare IME. IMO, it's likely the bulk of status card holders either acquire status as a by-product of a need to travel, or acquire it for a large portion of the whole of benefits offered by having status (picking seats, lounge access, additional luggage, less likely to be denied boarding, GUFs, etc.)

Whereas, if I spend "points" out of "my balance" at my own discretion to acquire an upgrade, and for which the "points" could be spent on other items directly equivalent to cash, then I am paying something to the airline in compensation for the upgrade. They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. If the timing of the payment matters that much to them, make the upgrade cost high enough that people either won't or can't pay "points" often, but frequently get a better deal by buying the target class at original purchase.

IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.

As a parallel, how should we classify letting passengers buy food on board the plane for Avios? Is that equivalent to giving away food for free?
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 2:46 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by dmp1991
If the point you're trying to make (not sure I've interpreted your sentence correctly) is that a free upgrade due to premium status is not really "free" to me, then I completely disagree. I did not spend any "thing" to get that upgrade. Yes, I had to earn the status somehow, but I didn't do that in return for that particular upgrade. Said another way, I don't acquire status solely to get a chance at a free upgrade every now and then and I doubt the majority of status passengers do that -- certainly not on BA where upgrades are very, very rare IME. IMO, it's likely the bulk of status card holders either acquire status as a by-product of a need to travel, or acquire it for a large portion of the whole of benefits offered by having status (picking seats, lounge access, additional luggage, less likely to be denied boarding, GUFs, etc.)

Whereas, if I spend "points" out of "my balance" at my own discretion to acquire an upgrade, and for which the "points" could be spent on other items directly equivalent to cash, then I am paying something to the airline in compensation for the upgrade. They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. If the timing of the payment matters that much to them, make the upgrade cost high enough that people either won't or can't pay "points" often, but frequently get a better deal by buying the target class at original purchase.

IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.

As a parallel, how should we classify letting passengers buy food on board the plane for Avios? Is that equivalent to giving away food for free?
They are just different models of operating an airline. It isn't the case one way is right and one way is wrong. Clearly the US airlines think filing every premium seat is important and generally EU airlines do not. At least for BA that model seems to work well. If you disagree fundamentally with the approach and demand upgrades be available whenever you travel then probably best you look to travel with other airlines.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 3:23 pm
  #28  
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Originally Posted by dmp1991
... They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. ...

IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.
If there are empty seats, you always have the chance to buy any empty seat with cash. You simply ask to change your ticket for the change fee and fare difference.

The real problem with BA's model for you is that you don't like the price they've set.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 5:14 pm
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
If there are empty seats, you always have the chance to buy any empty seat with cash. You simply ask to change your ticket for the change fee and fare difference.
While *YOU* might do this, I won't. I've got a large pot of currency, valid only with BA, called Avios that I'd like to use for this purpose. If BA won't let me spend it at all to put my butt in otherwise empty seats, then there's no point earning any more of it by flying BA at all, much less paying more for a higher class of seat. So if I have to use cash, it will be with an airline that understands that loyalty rewards have to be achievable to engender any loyalty.

Originally Posted by Globaliser
The real problem with BA's model for you is that you don't like the price they've set.
ABSOLUTELY incorrect. They haven't SET a price because they aren't allowing Avios to be used at all. Give me an Avios cost for the upgrade, and then we can talk about whether I like the price or not.
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Old Apr 27, 2017, 5:29 pm
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
It isn't the case one way is right and one way is wrong.
Well, I think you're wrong on that point. :-) At best, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by KARFA
...and demand upgrades be available whenever you travel then probably best you look to travel with other airlines.
Ignoring the hyperbolic misinterpretation, I'll try one more time...

I'm not talking about a (free) upgrade. I'm stating that paying with Avios is paying for the upgrade. It's literally the same as cash, exchanged at a rate the airline sets. You can see this in two ways. First, by being allowed to spend Avios where you might otherwise pay cash (food, reward tickets, etc.) And second, by looking at the airline's financial reporting. Every airline shows a liability on their balance sheet for accrued FFP benefits (aka Avios for BA.) They literally account for their customers' unspent Avios as a cash liability.

So, if the airline has an empty seat and they'll take cash for it, anyone rational can see they should take Avios for it too.

I'm not saying they should take a pittance of Avios. I'm saying they should take an equivalent amount of Avios as they would charge in cash.

Last edited by dmp1991; Apr 27, 2017 at 5:41 pm
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