Upgrade question
#16
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: EDI
Programs: AA: Life time PLT; HH Diamond
Posts: 336
Upgrade to Downgrade to Upgrade
Reminds me a recent BCN-LHR flight where I was upgraded at the gate to CE, downgraded after sitting in 1F just before door closed, then upgraded by Pursor/CSM back to CE, after door closed, to exit row 11A (yes CE went back to row 12).
Was a bit confused as a Oneworld Emerald and a BA nobody!
The new mugs are nice though...(It was freebie ticket which was maybe confusing not just me!!).
I prefer AA where you are likely to be upgraded, space available or by using the SWUs each year...why have empty cabins?
Was a bit confused as a Oneworld Emerald and a BA nobody!
The new mugs are nice though...(It was freebie ticket which was maybe confusing not just me!!).
I prefer AA where you are likely to be upgraded, space available or by using the SWUs each year...why have empty cabins?
#17
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Silver, SPG Gold, Hilton Gold, Melia Gold, Shangri-La Jade, BA Amex PP, Iberia+, Nandos Card
Posts: 1,523
The "why have empty cabins" question has already been answered perfectly by nux and fitch upthread, not sure why people keep asking it.
It's also not a great comparison between long-haul flights with upgrades on domestic American flights or other carriers. Completely different drivers and interests both commercially and in terms of the product and perception they want their brand to project.
It's also not a great comparison between long-haul flights with upgrades on domestic American flights or other carriers. Completely different drivers and interests both commercially and in terms of the product and perception they want their brand to project.
#18
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Lincoln, UK
Programs: BA Gold, TK, DL, IHG Diamond, HHonours Gold, Hertz Presidents Club
Posts: 497
There is quite a few videos on youtube that go someway to explain the concept. Some are quite good, CNN had quite a good segment on Business Traveller some time ago (think it can be found on YT), with Quest doing it in his usual way, he's good at simplifying IMHO
I personally find airline pricing structure totally fascinating. Working in sales, I have usually always worked on cost plus agreed margins. So a model like this seems totally alien, particularly when a seat is a 'perishable' item as it were. However I totally understand an airlines reasoning.
The system is the main reason that all premium seats have not gone into a budget airline style price war. I wonder what would happen if a budget carrier launched a LH seat on the same level as the top carrier (minus IFE) but without all the lounge and premium food and extras. (i.e top rate hard product but no soft) Would it change the model..
I personally find airline pricing structure totally fascinating. Working in sales, I have usually always worked on cost plus agreed margins. So a model like this seems totally alien, particularly when a seat is a 'perishable' item as it were. However I totally understand an airlines reasoning.
The system is the main reason that all premium seats have not gone into a budget airline style price war. I wonder what would happen if a budget carrier launched a LH seat on the same level as the top carrier (minus IFE) but without all the lounge and premium food and extras. (i.e top rate hard product but no soft) Would it change the model..
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,642
Which is not to criticise those who have such an expectation, because there are (shall we say) some cultural differences at work on the opposite sides of the Atlantic.
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bloomington IN
Posts: 882
I looked at the cabins before takeoff and confirmed when deplaning the large number of
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
#21
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London
Programs: BA bronze, Hertz pres circle, Marriott Platinum, hilton diamond
Posts: 2,537
I looked at the cabins before takeoff and confirmed when deplaning the large number of
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
seats that still had the blankets and amenity kits untouched. Also talked with a women whose husband was in business [she was in PE]!? that the section was "empty".
Thanks to jerry a. lasaka for those links to the other posts.
JJ
And/or do they suddenly open up all empty business class seats at T-24? again, internationally.
#22
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: BA Gold, IHG
Posts: 88
Let's just be clear that award seats are different from free upgrades. Award seats cost me a currency (Avios) whereas the later cost me nothing. I argue that it is in the airline's favor to get me to spend my Avios balance down, especially if it is at a less favorable exchange rate to the than I might otherwise get from whole reward flights.
#23
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Isle of Man
Programs: IHG Platinum Elite, BA Pleb
Posts: 343
I personally find airline pricing structure totally fascinating. Working in sales, I have usually always worked on cost plus agreed margins. So a model like this seems totally alien, particularly when a seat is a 'perishable' item as it were. However I totally understand an airlines reasoning.
The current seat is perishable, but the one you'll buy next month isn't, nor the one after that. And if you let your high-tier FF members routinely get bargain upgrades to WT+/CW, then they stop routinely buying WT+/CW seats. You lose 200 on this empty seat, you gain 700 by persuading people to pay for the ticket they actually want next time.
#24
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,692
Let's just be clear that award seats are different from free upgrades. Award seats cost me a currency (Avios) whereas the later cost me nothing. I argue that it is in the airline's favor to get me to spend my Avios balance down, especially if it is at a less favorable exchange rate to the than I might otherwise get from whole reward flights.
Also free status or miles upgrades are not really free, how many flights have you had to take to earn the avios, SWU, or GUF? There is always a cost even if it is not directly incurred on actioning the upgrade.
#25
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold; FB Silver; SPG; IHG Gold
Posts: 2,963
Next time the OP should walk into CW and stretch his legs
I think BA's upgrade system is pretty good actually and makes sense. Occasionally card holders will get an Opup, although I believe that's when the cabin they have booked into is oversold (though a more savvy FT'er will be able to clarify/confirm). I much prefer BA's system to the bid for an upgrade game that other carriers seem to play.
I think BA's upgrade system is pretty good actually and makes sense. Occasionally card holders will get an Opup, although I believe that's when the cabin they have booked into is oversold (though a more savvy FT'er will be able to clarify/confirm). I much prefer BA's system to the bid for an upgrade game that other carriers seem to play.
#26
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: BA Gold, IHG
Posts: 88
Whereas, if I spend "points" out of "my balance" at my own discretion to acquire an upgrade, and for which the "points" could be spent on other items directly equivalent to cash, then I am paying something to the airline in compensation for the upgrade. They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. If the timing of the payment matters that much to them, make the upgrade cost high enough that people either won't or can't pay "points" often, but frequently get a better deal by buying the target class at original purchase.
IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.
As a parallel, how should we classify letting passengers buy food on board the plane for Avios? Is that equivalent to giving away food for free?
#27
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,692
If the point you're trying to make (not sure I've interpreted your sentence correctly) is that a free upgrade due to premium status is not really "free" to me, then I completely disagree. I did not spend any "thing" to get that upgrade. Yes, I had to earn the status somehow, but I didn't do that in return for that particular upgrade. Said another way, I don't acquire status solely to get a chance at a free upgrade every now and then and I doubt the majority of status passengers do that -- certainly not on BA where upgrades are very, very rare IME. IMO, it's likely the bulk of status card holders either acquire status as a by-product of a need to travel, or acquire it for a large portion of the whole of benefits offered by having status (picking seats, lounge access, additional luggage, less likely to be denied boarding, GUFs, etc.)
Whereas, if I spend "points" out of "my balance" at my own discretion to acquire an upgrade, and for which the "points" could be spent on other items directly equivalent to cash, then I am paying something to the airline in compensation for the upgrade. They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. If the timing of the payment matters that much to them, make the upgrade cost high enough that people either won't or can't pay "points" often, but frequently get a better deal by buying the target class at original purchase.
IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.
As a parallel, how should we classify letting passengers buy food on board the plane for Avios? Is that equivalent to giving away food for free?
Whereas, if I spend "points" out of "my balance" at my own discretion to acquire an upgrade, and for which the "points" could be spent on other items directly equivalent to cash, then I am paying something to the airline in compensation for the upgrade. They even get to set the price! So I'm effectively paying with cash at the rate they set. If the timing of the payment matters that much to them, make the upgrade cost high enough that people either won't or can't pay "points" often, but frequently get a better deal by buying the target class at original purchase.
IMO, it's just silly for the airline not to offer you the opportunity to buy any empty seat whether paying cash or "points" or Avios.
As a parallel, how should we classify letting passengers buy food on board the plane for Avios? Is that equivalent to giving away food for free?
#28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,642
The real problem with BA's model for you is that you don't like the price they've set.
#29
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: BA Gold, IHG
Posts: 88
ABSOLUTELY incorrect. They haven't SET a price because they aren't allowing Avios to be used at all. Give me an Avios cost for the upgrade, and then we can talk about whether I like the price or not.
#30
Join Date: Feb 2015
Programs: BA Gold, IHG
Posts: 88
Well, I think you're wrong on that point. :-) At best, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Ignoring the hyperbolic misinterpretation, I'll try one more time...
I'm not talking about a (free) upgrade. I'm stating that paying with Avios is paying for the upgrade. It's literally the same as cash, exchanged at a rate the airline sets. You can see this in two ways. First, by being allowed to spend Avios where you might otherwise pay cash (food, reward tickets, etc.) And second, by looking at the airline's financial reporting. Every airline shows a liability on their balance sheet for accrued FFP benefits (aka Avios for BA.) They literally account for their customers' unspent Avios as a cash liability.
So, if the airline has an empty seat and they'll take cash for it, anyone rational can see they should take Avios for it too.
I'm not saying they should take a pittance of Avios. I'm saying they should take an equivalent amount of Avios as they would charge in cash.
I'm not talking about a (free) upgrade. I'm stating that paying with Avios is paying for the upgrade. It's literally the same as cash, exchanged at a rate the airline sets. You can see this in two ways. First, by being allowed to spend Avios where you might otherwise pay cash (food, reward tickets, etc.) And second, by looking at the airline's financial reporting. Every airline shows a liability on their balance sheet for accrued FFP benefits (aka Avios for BA.) They literally account for their customers' unspent Avios as a cash liability.
So, if the airline has an empty seat and they'll take cash for it, anyone rational can see they should take Avios for it too.
I'm not saying they should take a pittance of Avios. I'm saying they should take an equivalent amount of Avios as they would charge in cash.
Last edited by dmp1991; Apr 27, 2017 at 5:41 pm