Dave Noble

The T&Cs will not have changed. The only change that AA implemented was what booking class was used. Whereas until 17 Jan, AA booked 1st class on 2 class flights using codes such as F,A and P , on 17th Jan, it changed them all to codes such as J,D, and I

All other aspects of the booking ( such as price, penalties, permitted routings, refundability etc ) remained exactly the same

Unless it was a full fare 1st class ticket ( booked in F ) , it was almost certainly a fare which AA classes as an instant upgrade fare. This , again, pretty much only impacts passengers where involuntarily downgraded in that AA has a specific calculation it uses to determine refund due

You are competely messing up a situation where someone sold you a ticket in breach of a scheme's terms and conditions which had no value, with a purchased ticket which has a value. From the description, yours was not an upgraded ticket at all, but an award ticket in a premium cabin -- which indeed will have a value of zero. Look at the fare on an award ticket and it shows as zero

I also think that the issue is most likely a mistake in the crediting side at AA , passing a booking class C across , rather than the reissued ticket being in C class

Premier Owl

We all agree the ticket CC ultimately received was an upgraded ticket. A 2 class upgraded ticket (this is new to me).

How can an upgraded ticket have a value - if it does, what is it?

The invoice sent to the passenger was incorrect and should have been amended (unless of course, something is being hidden).

Dave Noble

We do not agree that there was a 2 class upgrade
There were only two classes of service on the flight
The value of the ticket is precisely what the passenger paid for the ticket ( excluding any booking fees paid to AMEX - which would have been avoided by buying directly from the airline )

This was not an upgrade in the mileage sense of the term

for Example - on LAX-MIA , the lowest 1st class round trip fare has fare basis KVEUPRIF and books into R class and costs $1310 plus tax
Its value is $1310 plus tax

going into fare rules, the conditions state

For mileage accrual to BA, this will accrue as per the earning for R class in the earning tables. R earns to BA as business class

For travel on January 1, the lowest 1st class return fare was KE21PRUP and cost $1350 ; at that time it would have booked into P class . P class would have credited to BA using 1st class earning rates
Its value, would have been $1350 plus tax

In both cases the fares would have been categorised as instant upgrade fares. This has no issue for insurance purposes since these are tickets purchased for cash. Completely different to tickets purchased using miles - which is what you had. You are lucky that the airline did not cancel the ticket that was unlawfully sold to you in breach of the airlines T&Cs for FF redemptions

Premier Owl

"You are lucky that the airline did not cancel the ticket that was unlawfully sold to you in breach of the airlines T&Cs for FF redemptions "

absolutely, which is why I refused to pay for the tickets and reported the agency to BA. I was indeed very lucky - I agree.

The passenger was ticketed on one sector in Y and flew F.. OK, there was no J...

"This has no issue for insurance purposes" - I disagree..

The fact still remains, the invoice did not reflect what was purchased... in my world, that could be interpreted as "very naughty" and I will avoid the "F" word...

Dave Noble

It has not been shown that the ticket was reissued incorrectly - only that the mileage has not credited as expected

it is much more likely that the issue reflects only on crediting than that the reissued ticket was incorrect

If , as I expect, the ticket was reissued into the correct class, it will be fairly straightforward to get the extra 70 TPs

Premier Owl

The ticket was reissued in a class needing an upgrade....

The invoice described a different product/class

Tier points were not added as per the class of the invoice

If it was that straightforward:

1. we would not be having this discussion
2. CC would have had the correct tier points

Seems to be that the corporate world of air travel is trying to shortcut and save giving benefits to the passenger.....

Dave Noble

You seem to be ignoring everything that is stated

There is NO difference

The fare purchased originally was an instant upgrade fare
After reissue, it was STILL an instant upgrade fare

Originally , the passenger was booked in 1st class
After reissue, the passenger was STILL booked in 1st class


The ONLY difference ( excluding the potential of a ticketing error ) is that originally, AA used booking classes such as F,A and P for 1st class and that in January it swapped to classes such as J,D and I

Yes, there is an incorrect credit of miles but this issue can occur in all sorts of situations - that the ticket was reissued does not imply that the reissue was the cause of the TP earning being 140+70 rather than correctly being 140+140

If American Express did actually reissue the AA domestic flight into C class, then there is an issue there and could make getting the other 70TPs

The passenger was never going to get 210 TPs each way unless he was to pay up for 1st class on the one 3 class service flight a day - this would likely have required a large additional payment

Premier Owl

Your view is the passenger travelled in F, all is OK

My view is whilst the traveller travelled in F, he travelled in F, in a "managed fashion" to benefit the airline.

1. You have not addressed the incorrect invoice, which details a purchase that was not incorrect

2. You have not addressed how an insurance company would value an "instant upgrade"

"The passenger was never going to get 210 tier points" - oh..... clearly he thought he was.....

Something is getting lost in USA/UK translation here......

I am very happy to continue this polite discussion, but as I am in London, I am now going to bed....

Dave Noble

The invoice has not been shown - so unable to see whether it shows the correct fare basis on it - if the invoice/eticket receipt actually shows a booking in C class, then something went amiss . Maybe the OP can provide the details from the original invoice and the reissued one

An insurance company will value it exactly as per the value shown on the ticket

That the passenger thought he would get 210 TPs is irrelevant ; after AA redid booking classes , BA no longer credits them with 210 TPs but at 140TPs ; this has no bearing on AA or AMEX

With the flight time change that occurred, the customer could have got a full refund of the ticket if no longer wanting to travel that routing with the reissued ticket

either
(a) there is a simple error in the crediting of miles with AA crediting as C rather than I
(b) there was actually an error at time of reissue

The most likely scenario , imo, is (a) - calling BA , explaining the situation, sending a copy of the eticket receipt will get this resolved quite easily and the extra 70TPs will be credited ( plus some class of service miles )

If it is (b) , then it will be harder

Heathrow Tower

An interesting discussion.

There certainly is something a bit odd about how AA treats P class fares.

I flew FRA-DFW-SCL and back last year, I purchased a first class ticket for this trip. All the AA site/eticket/invoice etc said was 'First Class' or 'P'. There was no further explanation. When purchased, all four legs were 3-class 772s, but two months prior to the trip the DFW-SCL-DFW legs were changed to the 788 with no first class. Through AA's website we had been changed to business class seating, and when we checked in and boarded at FRA heading for DFW, we were also given boarding passes for our business class seats for DFW-SCL. I wasn't too concerned because it would be 'new business' as opposed to 'old first'.

Of course, upon boarding at DFW we were told of a seat change and we were bumped down to economy. Not happy, but, and now we get to the crux of the matter, when I was on the phone to AA customer service the next day, the lady I was speaking to explained that I hadn't bought a first class ticket; P fare class meant that I had bought an 'economy ticket' which I 'had then upgraded' but that upgrading to first from economy was 'illegal' and that I should only have ever been 'travelling in business' on a 'space available basis'. I tried to say that I had searched for 'first class' on AA.com, and this is the fare that came back, there was no explanation that it was not really first class.

When I asked about the return leg, she said that as I had 'ilegally upgraded to first', she would make sure that I was in economy on both sectors back to FRA. Unfortunately I then had to board(!) so I hung up. I rang back the following day and spoke to a lovely chap who never mentioned anything about upgrades and re-routed us SCL-MIA-DFW-FRA so we could be in first class all the way.

CC999

To Dave Noble


In reply to your request to see the Invoices


Invoice dated 31 August 2016


Date 6 March 2017
Airline: American airlines
Flight/Class: AA295 P First Class
Origin: Miami International
Destination: Los Angeles International
Departing: 0923
Arriving: 11:51
Stops:Non Stop


10 March 2017
Airline: American airlines
Flight: AA 68 P First Class
Origin: Los Angeles International
Destination: Miami International
Departing: 10:30
Arriving: 18:40


Invoice dated 13 November 2016


Flight Details: 06 March 2017 AA295 I Class
Miami/Los Angeles


Flight Details: 10 March 2017 AA68 P Class
Los Angeles/Miami


Further details sent on 17 December 2016


Monday 06 March 2017


Airline: American Airlines
Flight:AA295
Origin: Miami
Destination: Los Angeles
Departing:09:20
Arriving:12:29
Class: I Business Class


Friday 10 March 2017


Airline: American Airlines
Flight:AA68
Origin : Los Angeles
Destination : Miami
Departing: 11:10
Arriving: 19:18
Class: P First Class


Those Invoices are all from American Express Travel.


The irony is that the flight AA said was Economy upgraded to First and attracted the 70 TP's is the last one shown clearly as First and at no time anything else.


Look forward to any thoughts you may have and thank you for taking a keen interest it's greatly appreciated.

Dave Noble

The outbound LAX-MIA looks quite correct as I class

The inbound being P class does look odd. It looks like AA or AMEX did not rebook the flight properly into I class, but that it stayed as P, which would go towards explaining the oddity

What type of aeroplane was the Los Angeles to Miami flight. I can only go back 1 week using the free lookup tools, and the recent flights all seem to be Airbus 321s

With the receipt showing the purchase of a premium class ticket, I would phome BA and see what an agent can do

Jase76

I also booked this fare for July last year for a TP run. After the first aircraft change (with no First), I called up and was told this was a Y-UP fare. I’d never heard of this. There were a few more aircraft changes which resulted in no First and negated the value of a TP run. Called AA and demanded a full refund without penalty. They eventually relented and I booked Business flight ex AMS to SCL for a lower price.

To this day I do not understand the AA Y-UP fares, or where this is disclosed in the fare conditions or website.

CC999

To Dave Noble


I'm really not sure what aircraft was used for the first leg, it was certainly just two Classes.

Premier Owl

@David Noble - "An insurance company will value it exactly as per the value shown on the ticket"

This is exactly my point. The client purchased an F ticket, but it will only be valued / treated as the non upgraded class/value, by a claims assessor.../ handler...