BA may start BoB in Y longhaul!

Old Apr 11, 17, 7:33 am
  #166  
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Originally Posted by henkybaby View Post
Shares made a nice jump again. Not sure if it is causation or correlation though.

If it is a plan, it is remarkably well executed. First water down the current offering to a degree that people are truly miserable and then offer to replace it with something good but they will have to pay for it. They may even thank you for doing it.

Personally, I would welcome a business model where I can 'design my own service'. Lets say I want a flat bed, but no need for free drinks and meals. Or I am happy with a WT seat, but I would like to have champagne (and preferably a choice) and good food. Maybe don't even want lounge access prior to my flight as I want to shop or have arrived late. Preferably I can decide my needs last minute, except from the seat of course.

I am not against that model, if it would lead to actual savings but I doubt it would. There is no way to cater for a model like this. It would require more cabin crew to execute it well and the entire logistic operation would need to change. It would be ideal though. I would sometimes gladly just 'buy a seat' and sleep.
I can see the attraction of the idea, but three important remarks:

1) I don't agree with you that it would mean savings. In fact, in practice, it would certainly mean higher costs for the same service: that is precisely the reason why companies unbundle. So in effect, if you wanted, say, a J seat with J food and J drinks but no extra luggage and no lounge access, this will come up more expensive than the current full J experience. That's the charging model;

2) What you describe already exists and is basically the low cost model. Everything is unbundled more or less, although it's applied more or less radically depending on the airline, but typically, choose standard, extra leg room, or even PE seat, choose to add flexibility or not, choose to add luggage or not, choose to buy food or not, drink or not, buy lounge access on the side if you want, etc.

3) If you start multiplying categories, implementation becomes more complex and requires more staff, which means a higher cost. I mean, the person with the hot meal will deliver 12 in rows 1, 2, 4, and 5 of the J cabin, another 14 in rows 10, 11, 13, and 15 on the PE cabin, and another 64 in row 20-64 of the Y cabin. Then the person with the sandwiches, the person with the drinks, etc, etc. As a result, airlines may choose to limit flexibility (e.g. limited number of Y sky couches on NZ) or re-bundle (e.g. standard meal included with J seats, etc).
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Old Apr 11, 17, 8:21 am
  #167  
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Yes orbitmic, I totally agree. I did say it would be impossible. It would be an administrative and logistic nightmare unless it would be like Norwegian for long haul + flatbeds.

There is a reason that AirAsia's long haul model failed completely*. I guess for the same reason that there will probably never be flatbeds on any LCC model. You do pay for the real estate more than for the service, I guess.

Just wondering: what if Norwegian offered no frills flatbeds at 70% of the cost of BA? No lounges, no FFP. How many here would switch? And if you would not at 70%, what would be a realistic price difference? Think 'own pocket', not company policy.

I would - to get slightly back on topic - prefer the AirAsia economy model to basically any mid/long haul carrier out there.

* They do offer the product again on regional long/mid haul like Australia, China and Japan for instance

Last edited by henkybaby; Apr 11, 17 at 8:36 am
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Old Apr 11, 17, 10:44 am
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Originally Posted by BA6948 View Post
Got of an Air France flight from Tunis. God it was so relaxing and great. Cabin crews were serving free food. Passengers were happy. No waiting, no waiving of BoB menus, just what you need when you travel a lot. And we got a warm flat bread with cheese and mushrooms, a yogurt and some fruits plus hot and cold drinks. Newspapers were offered. It was great. Oh hold on, that's BA CE service to Madrid
Definitely a nice way to fly, but AF don't seem to be able to get people to pay enough for its service to make it profitable.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 11:39 am
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Originally Posted by TheMajor View Post
Does anyone actually think, that a company the size of BA, will not have rigorously spent huge amount of time using business analytics and sophisticated modelling to determine the likely impact of any business change they introduce. It is standard for any company to do this.
Never underestimate the bull headedness of some business leaders.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 11:59 am
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Grando View Post
Definitely a nice way to fly, but AF don't seem to be able to get people to pay enough for its service to make it profitable.
While af went through some terrible years in the not very distant past, their 2016 results are completely in line with ba's.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 12:07 pm
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Probably inevitable. It does a number of things:

1. Reinforces WTP price point
2. Pushes CW harder - which is also due to undergo an imminent refurb to make it competitive
3. Aligns BA's model to that of Norwegian; BA already has pre-pay "better" meals in Y that cost 15+ on some routes

I can see what Cruz is doing in some respects. The money isn't sourced in economy really. What really needs to happen, however, is for those higher cabins to be truly worth it. And when Qatar J is 99 per cent as good as BA F that's a problem.

The other issue is the BA monopoly. If departing UK it offers more routes than any other carrier to places that other carriers don't go direct. Cruz is unjustly playing on that: "if they don't like it, go elsewhere!". Yet, in many cases, this simply isn't plausible.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
While af went through some terrible years in the not very distant past, their 2016 results are completely in line with ba's.
I hadn't realized that, so thanks for the correction.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 4:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Grando View Post
Definitely a nice way to fly, but AF don't seem to be able to get people to pay enough for its service to make it profitable.
I really don't care. I am a passenger not a shareholder. AF is now light years ahead of BA in terms of service in all classes. They continue to invest in all classes including Y. They will even improve the SH catering in Y soon. Flown them in Premium Economy and it was a pleasure. They have introduced new amenity kits that are well designed and smart. I am trying to convince my colleagues to ditch BA for AF and they are listening. AF is becoming the best in Europe.
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Old Apr 11, 17, 6:01 pm
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Very long thread!

Haven't read every page, but isn't a classic strategy to mention something unpalatable, it enters the public consciousness and then when it's officially introduced we are all used to the idea?
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Old Apr 12, 17, 12:14 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Apologies if my question was unclear: by asking if it was being discussed, I did not mean just some solitary voices randomly mentioning it but something more organised like a work group or task force that would be exploring the possibility of long haul BoB. From your answer above I'm gathering that this is probably not the case.
Of course it will have been discussed, and it will be on a list of options being evaluated.

With the way large corporates work it's quite likely someone at board level has said the 400m of investment in CW is conditional on it being funded by cost savings elsewhere in the airline. Further cuts in the Y proposition (food, density, dumbing down to entry level staff) are all options that will be considered.

Of course we can pretend that it isn't happening but behind the spin someone will be looking at it and the cost savings that could accrue.
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Old Apr 12, 17, 12:17 am
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Originally Posted by Sealink View Post
Very long thread!

Haven't read every page, but isn't a classic strategy to mention something unpalatable, it enters the public consciousness and then when it's officially introduced we are all used to the idea?
Indeed. In the months and years before BoB there were plenty of denials on here...it's not going to happen....I don't recognise that...etc etc.

Until the inevitable happened that is.
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Old Apr 12, 17, 1:37 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
While af went through some terrible years in the not very distant past, their 2016 results are completely in line with ba's.
Don't mix up Air France's results with that of the combined group. Very much KLM leading the way.

"Air France's operating profit declined 12.7% to 372 million; KLM's, meanwhile, rose more than three-quarters to 681 million."

And if you care to look it up, BA on its own, made considerably more profit than that.
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Old Apr 12, 17, 2:05 am
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Originally Posted by BApilotinsider View Post
Don't mix up Air France's results with that of the combined group. Very much KLM leading the way.
(SNIP)
And if you care to look it up, BA on its own, made considerably more profit than that.
How do BA and AF/KLM compare in terms of size? Is the profit per seat mile significantly different?
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Old Apr 12, 17, 2:06 am
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Originally Posted by BApilotinsider View Post
Don't mix up Air France's results with that of the combined group. Very much KLM leading the way.

"Air France's operating profit declined 12.7% to 372 million; KLM's, meanwhile, rose more than three-quarters to 681 million."

And if you care to look it up, BA on its own, made considerably more profit than that.
BA's good results are from the previous years though while the airline was still generous.
I think with too many cuts profitability may fall.
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Old Apr 12, 17, 2:17 am
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Originally Posted by ahmetdouas View Post
BA's good results are from the previous years though while the airline was still generous.
I think with too many cuts profitability may fall.
You may think that...

Just announced, IAG premium traffic up 6.9% in March year on year.

All airlines will have a tougher time going forward, the market is much softer. Who has the right strategy is anyone's guess...
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