BA may start BoB in Y longhaul!

Old Apr 10, 17, 9:05 pm
  #151  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: NY/LON
Programs: loyalty?! BA Gold, DL Platinum
Posts: 302
Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Absolutely, but then an equal truth is that for a whole range of reasons, legacy airlines cannot match the costs of long haul low cost airlines, and therefore cannot match their prices whilst making a profit. Their salary base is higher (not least pilots), they have to bear the costs of connections, lounges, over-staffing due to multiple cabins, expensive airports, older fleets, etc.

The question therefore becomes: if BA cannot match the prices of, say, DY, then how do they ensure that at least some people continue to fly the former rather than the latter? That is a truly complex equation: fail to save and you cannot compete on price, save on the wrong stuff and... people will choose solely on price and therefore not you!

There are so many options available: densification (10 across 777, etc), flexible long haul cabin sizes (the AF way), meals, luggage, drinks, ancillary payments (from a la carte meals to family couches a la NZ, internet, duty free, special occasion options a la CX, etc), pillows, blankets, amenity kits, or even change of airports served.

Pick the wrong thing and you lose crucial reputational capital and therefore customers to competition (other European airlines competing for the same overall markets, ME3, etc). Fail to pick enough and your costs are too high. To make things even more complicated, customers do not always neatly fit into 'leisure' and 'business' types. Attack your leisure market by downgrading Y too much, and you may well lose top premium traffic as most business pax in large companies or high up roles effectively have a choice of airlines on business trips, and will often rationalise that choice according to what they want to use when they go on holiday with the kids. Save the wrong 100 on that 4 passenger holiday trip, and you might lose 100,000 of that executive business travel, or even 5 million of their company travel.

So that's the more complex picture. European airlines such as BA need to compete on price but also, at the exact same time, give people reason to justifying paying more on them than on the DYs of this world. They are uncomfortably stuck between airlines which costs they can never match whatever they decide to cut, and others which service they can never equal regardless of how much effort they make. Those centrifugal forces probably largely explain why BA and the rest often seem so unclear regarding service evolution.
Nailed it. I think very few think this thoughtfully into the subject. It's complicated stuff.

To the best of my knowledge, the BA approach is to build passenger experience tech, like the automated boarding gates, bag drop kiosks to win passengers on convenience. On board, as you say, too many cuts and you may just blow it.

I think the interesting room here is for their co branded credit card market. What if they offered perks on board for card holders? 20% off F&B, free bag on short haul, etc. With it being such a popular product in the UK it could deter folks from shopping elsewhere.

I also think from a loyalty stand point that they've gotta introduce the BOB perks for elites. A Gold should get a sandwich and a coffee. Period. It's the only deterrent.

Finally, the Exec Club is one of the few defining factors over budget carriers. It needs to be bolstered and simplified to provide more value for it's holders. If the EC starts to feel like JAL Mileage Bank and we all find incredible value for our Avios, it's another sticking point. Until then, it's open season...
godsavethepoints is offline  
Old Apr 10, 17, 9:27 pm
  #152  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Jagboi View Post
You should have a look at the Rouge thread on the AC forum. Or the Skytraxx ratings that AC loves to trumpet. I'd certainly never step foot on a Rouge plane.

Rouge is not TATL (yet) mainly transborder and Caribbean routes.

Now that BA's new COO is coming from AC you might be subject to the awful experience that is Rouge, such as 29" pitch.

(AC= Air Canada in this post)
Premium Rouge is a lot better both in terms of seat comfort and catering than CE in my experience.

I'd rate Rouge economy slightly ahead of ET. Seat pitch feels the same to me, and Rouge at least provides free soft drinks, juice, coffee/tea, and charges less for a G&T than BA charge in ET.
Grando is offline  
Old Apr 10, 17, 10:11 pm
  #153  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: OZ Diamond Plus
Posts: 987
Originally Posted by crazyanglaisy View Post
I'm sure it'll be up for consideration amongst the BA bigwigs, but I just can't see how this could be workable on all BA longhaul Y flights, without serious issues arising. Fine, at least in principle, on the transatlantic trips (as per Norwegian) but how are you supposed to handle this as a passenger on a 14 hour redeye back from Singapore, or other Asian flights? Surely BA can't expect you to stock up on crisps, biscuits, or a cold salad for breakfast 12 hours into the journey.
They could do what UA tried two years ago keep the main meals free but the midflight snack becomes BoB so even on 1516 hour sectors like SFO/LAX-SYD or EWR-HKG/DEL/BOM you get lunch/dinner an hour in and breakfast an hour before landing and nothing for the 12 hours in between unless you pay for it. Needless to say they backtracked within a year(!) and brought the free snacks back. (However they still provide BoB as an additional option on the longest of longhaul routes, not sure how good uptake is though.)

Also FWIW UA used to charge for wine and beer in Y but they backtracked on that as well (and in fact UA has pretty decent craft beer down the back now). Spirits aren't free but I've seen FAs comp them quite often why do I suspect if BA goes down this route their FAs won't have such discretion available to them...
truncated is offline  
Old Apr 10, 17, 10:34 pm
  #154  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 525
Originally Posted by Jagboi View Post
You should have a look at the Rouge thread on the AC forum. Or the Skytraxx ratings that AC loves to trumpet. I'd certainly never step foot on a Rouge plane.

Rouge is not TATL (yet) mainly transborder and Caribbean routes.

Now that BA's new COO is coming from AC you might be subject to the awful experience that is Rouge, such as 29" pitch.

(AC= Air Canada in this post)
Rouge offers a handful of TATL routes, there was one last year from YYZ to BCN that I almost got put on. Thankfully I have not been subjected to Rouge but everyone I've talked to does not have good things to say about it.

Keep in mind, WS also flies TATL with BoB as well much to many people's displeasure.
LoveHateRelationship is offline  
Old Apr 10, 17, 10:41 pm
  #155  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Programs: BA bronze, Aeroplan peon
Posts: 4,141
Originally Posted by Grando View Post
I'd rate Rouge economy slightly ahead of ET. Seat pitch feels the same to me, and Rouge at least provides free soft drinks, juice, coffee/tea, and charges less for a G&T than BA charge in ET.
Depends on the plane, the 767's have a more generous pitch than the 320's apparently.

I was wrong about the TATL, totally forgot about them. So far they are doing BUD, ALG, ATH, BCN, CMN, DUB, EDI, GLA, LIM, LGW, MAN, MRS, NGO, NCE, KIX, PRG, KEF, FCO, VCE, WAW. Those are the main routes out of North America, I didn't bother listing stuff within North America.

Most of it is out of YYZ, so that's why it didn't cross my mind.
Jagboi is offline  
Old Apr 10, 17, 11:09 pm
  #156  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Jagboi View Post
Most of it is out of YYZ, so that's why it didn't cross my mind.
I believe the routes out of YYC are LAS, PHX and such. Premium Rouge on those routes is far superior to what BA provides in CE on flights of similar length IMO.

I rate Rouge economy better than CE too given that at least non-alcoholic drinks are free. There's also some form of IFE on Rouge if one brings one's own device.
Grando is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 2:40 am
  #157  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Around somewhere
Programs: Bronze, Some red card and some hotel cards.
Posts: 374
I suspect every airline going has considered BoB for long haul so don't they all get a mention... Still think it's all done by someone who has a big axe to grind... whether justified or not is another matter.

But until it happens, if if happens why worry, life is too short and there are people who struggle to find something to eat every single day and live let alone a few hours on a plane where you may have the option to buy some......
SonTech is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 3:52 am
  #158  
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere between 0 and 13,000 metres high
Programs: AF/KL Life Plat, BA GfL+CCR, Aclub Plat, Hilton Diam, Marriott Gold, blablablah, etc
Posts: 25,026
Originally Posted by godsavethepoints View Post
Nailed it. I think very few think this thoughtfully into the subject. It's complicated stuff.

To the best of my knowledge, the BA approach is to build passenger experience tech, like the automated boarding gates, bag drop kiosks to win passengers on convenience. On board, as you say, too many cuts and you may just blow it.

I think the interesting room here is for their co branded credit card market. What if they offered perks on board for card holders? 20% off F&B, free bag on short haul, etc. With it being such a popular product in the UK it could deter folks from shopping elsewhere.

I also think from a loyalty stand point that they've gotta introduce the BOB perks for elites. A Gold should get a sandwich and a coffee. Period. It's the only deterrent.

Finally, the Exec Club is one of the few defining factors over budget carriers. It needs to be bolstered and simplified to provide more value for it's holders. If the EC starts to feel like JAL Mileage Bank and we all find incredible value for our Avios, it's another sticking point. Until then, it's open season...
I agree with you that the experience technology seems to be BA's key route right now, but not necessarily that the spirit is differentiation: more catching up to be honest as they are effectively far behind competition on that (they rolled out Altea much later than LH and AF, e-gates have been a staple of SK and the likes for years, etc). Similarly, they missed the boat on seat densification in long haul Y (yes, I hate it, but airlines have now found this is not a customer repellent, and EK, AF, KL have done it for years. BA has not even started). The one tragic route in which BA are considered 'ahead' of their competitors is in staff productivity. Again, I don't like it but they are trend setters there.

Credit cards etc have a big limit: they are great for the UK based market, but from that point of view, BA is well behind competitors in trying to capture non-flying loyalty in multiple European markets. LH is the uncontested leader there, but even AF-KL are well ahead of BA. Thing is: BA can't survive as a major without connecting traffic and post-Brexit years present the risk of being much worse than anything BA management ever imagined on that front (they may not be, but you can't rule the possibility out any more) and that is a huge challenge ahead.
orbitmic is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 3:57 am
  #159  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Programs: Starbucks Gold
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by TheMajor View Post
Does anyone actually think, that a company the size of BA, will not have rigorously spent huge amount of time using business analytics and sophisticated modelling to determine the likely impact of any business change they introduce.
Depends.

In a lot of big companies the CEO says what he wants to happen, and then it's the job of business analysts to prove that he's right. Because if you prove the CEO wrong it's a fast track route to a P45. And consulting contractors who prove the Big Boss wrong don't tend to get a second contract.

Some CEOs rule by consensus. But not many.
Arctic Troll is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 4:16 am
  #160  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: BAEC Gold, IHG Spire Elite, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 5,837
Originally Posted by Arctic Troll View Post
Depends.

In a lot of big companies the CEO says what he wants to happen, and then it's the job of business analysts to prove that he's right. Because if you prove the CEO wrong it's a fast track route to a P45. And consulting contractors who prove the Big Boss wrong don't tend to get a second contract.

Some CEOs rule by consensus. But not many.
One of my bosses is like that. If it's not his opinion, then it's wrong no matter if everyone else can plainly see it, prove it etc.
xenole is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 6:25 am
  #161  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cambridge, England
Programs: BA, VS, Le Club Accor Gold
Posts: 1,201
Originally Posted by Jagboi View Post
You should have a look at the Rouge thread on the AC forum. Or the Skytraxx ratings that AC loves to trumpet. I'd certainly never step foot on a Rouge plane.

Rouge is not TATL (yet) mainly transborder and Caribbean routes.

Now that BA's new COO is coming from AC you might be subject to the awful experience that is Rouge, such as 29" pitch.

(AC= Air Canada in this post)
I was offered Rouge for a transatlantic flight from London to Toronto, it said AC but the info sign said operated by Rouge which explained the 'bargain' price, normally I choose Virgin for TATL but they don't fly to Toronto and with an 11 month old i'd prefer a direct flight! (hence why we're flying BA)

Last edited by fredandgingermad; Apr 11, 17 at 1:27 pm Reason: just clarifying we're not flying rouge
fredandgingermad is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 6:35 am
  #162  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Krakow
Programs: BAEC Silver, Miles and More(FTL), IHG(Platinum), Accor, HHonors(Diamond), SPG, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 2,753
Originally Posted by godsavethepoints View Post
I think the interesting room here is for their co branded credit card market. What if they offered perks on board for card holders? 20% off F&B, free bag on short haul, etc. With it being such a popular product in the UK it could deter folks from shopping elsewhere.
Great if you are UK based

not so good for the frequent flyer connecting pax that BA want to attract as there cards are not available everywhere

stick to benefits being available to BAEC members at appropriate levels
scottishpoet is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 7:38 am
  #163  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Hague, NL
Programs: GMLFL, Life 2.0 - Mucci Premiere Classe & des Chevaliers Toulousiens
Posts: 22,850
Shares made a nice jump again. Not sure if it is causation or correlation though.

If it is a plan, it is remarkably well executed. First water down the current offering to a degree that people are truly miserable and then offer to replace it with something good but they will have to pay for it. They may even thank you for doing it.

Personally, I would welcome a business model where I can 'design my own service'. Lets say I want a flat bed, but no need for free drinks and meals. Or I am happy with a WT seat, but I would like to have champagne (and preferably a choice) and good food. Maybe don't even want lounge access prior to my flight as I want to shop or have arrived late. Preferably I can decide my needs last minute, except from the seat of course.

I am not against that model, if it would lead to actual savings but I doubt it would. There is no way to cater for a model like this. It would require more cabin crew to execute it well and the entire logistic operation would need to change. It would be ideal though. I would sometimes gladly just 'buy a seat' and sleep.
henkybaby is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 7:47 am
  #164  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: Executive Club: Gold - Flying Blue: Gold
Posts: 906
Talking

Originally Posted by henkybaby View Post
Personally, I would welcome a business model where I can 'design my own service'. Lets say I want a flat bed, but no need for free drinks and meals. Or I am happy with a WT seat, but I would like to have champagne (and preferably a choice) and good food. Maybe don't even want lounge access prior to my flight as I want to shop or have arrived late. Preferably I can decide my needs last minute, except from the seat of course.
... and I want a model where I can buy an Economy fare that includes most of what we used to have. If it is expensive, like Y, B, K, M classes, I don't want to worry about add-ons. For frequent traveler it is a nightmare having to claim expenses with dozens of receipts. I don't want more receipts. And I want to travel in a relaxed way not waiting 2 hours for my food and drink not knowing if I would get my choice. There is still a market for Y high fare Business Travelers.

Got of an Air France flight from Tunis. God it was so relaxing and great. Cabin crews were serving free food. Passengers were happy. No waiting, no waiving of BoB menus, just what you need when you travel a lot. And we got a warm flat bread with cheese and mushrooms, a yogurt and some fruits plus hot and cold drinks. Newspapers were offered. It was great. Oh hold on, that's BA CE service to Madrid
BA6948 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 17, 7:50 am
  #165  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Hague, NL
Programs: GMLFL, Life 2.0 - Mucci Premiere Classe & des Chevaliers Toulousiens
Posts: 22,850
Originally Posted by BA6948 View Post
... and I want a model where I can buy an Economy fare that includes most of what we used to have. If it is expensive, like Y, B, K, M classes, I don't want to worry about add-ons.
Yes, exactly. Ultimately choice is what is important. Would be a nightmare for the crews though.
henkybaby is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: