popmagnet

Then write to your MP.

Globaliser

There are two shining points from your hypothetical scenario:-

1. [*]

I am sure that you are absolutely right, save for the trivial matter of it tending to cost significantly more to buy a ticket for the F cabin than for the J cabin.

Ancient Observer

We just do not have the data to strongly support any of the arguments on here.

If BA is increasing the no. of downgrades due to taking more money from other slf, then eventually any ticket purchase beyond the cheapest Y ticket becomes an option on better travel.
However, if it is just doing what it has always done, as everyone else is doing, but being "caught out" more, then that's just how Aviation works.

ScubaRoo

Very good point, this is particularly relevant if BA split the pax up by just downgrading one pax so that they are no longer in the same cabin, see item 18 of their own T&C's.
https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...onditions.html

sl1ppy

So, much discussion on EU261 rights, what would be the likely outcome of say downgraded, F -> Y, nothing else offered - refuse this and book full fare F on another carrier. Success in court or not?

TabTraveller

You'd need to be careful that you were mitigating your losses and have sufficiently deep pockets to stump up the cash for the 9+ months it would take to get your money back from BA. I expect that you'd eventually be successful.

mmxbreaks

Angry thread!

Quick q:

If an Avios 2-4-1 was downgraded from F to J and the ticket cost, say, £1000, then £750 of that would be due as compensation (even though the seat hasn't cost anything, per se, it's all tax and made up fees).

What of the Avios though? Is 100 per cent of the difference from a J to F redemption returned too...?

scubaccr

But not the ticket, just that flight segment, a simple A-B-A then could be 75% of 50% , but if A- B (LH) -C (SH) rtn C-B-A then not even 75% of 50% for downgraded segment

pauldb

Just coming at this from another angle, the other source of your "downgrade rights" is your ticket and the specifics of that contract.

I'm surprised that BA's Conditions of Carriage make so little reference to IDB/downgrades, given they are such common industry practices. The only reference to IDB is:

3c7) We will accept each flight coupon in your ticket for transportation in the class of service on the date and flight for which you have a reservation unless you fail to meet the check-in and boarding requirements in clause 6 or we have to deny you boarding because of overbooking or we exercise our right to refuse to carry you under clause 5d3 or 7.

(The last reference to refusal covers you standard conditions under which BA might not want or be able to safely carry you.)

There is no reference to downgrading passengers at all. I may be stretching logic but perhaps such a clause would be too obviously (legally) unfair. You can't sell a product at a given price and then force a customer to accept a lesser product for a mandated partial refund?

As I read those conditions, if you present yourself ready and suitable to fly, BA must carry you in the class you booked or exercise their one and only option in the case of overbooking: IDB not downgrading. Of course there's nothing to stop them negotiating with you a downgrade but I can't see how they can compel you.

If you are IBD'd, you are then of course into the arms of EU261: entitled to compensation and re-rerouting ("under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity"). Interestingly they would also be compelled to call for volunteers, unlike in the case of an EU261 downgrade.

I think pragmatically I would typically accept a one class downgrade to J or WT+, but any more than that and I might just insist on being IBD'd and rerouted.

thefuzzylogic

Thanks for that, and also thanks to everyone else who replied. I probably should have expected all the focus on EC261, when really I was thinking of it as a contractual issue. I'm inclined to agree that it should be more along the lines of an IDB scenario, where accepting a downgrade is just the negotiated solution to get the pax to their destination with minimum delay.

I also think that "double downgrade because it's cheaper" is a flaw in the drafting of the regulation. They really should have made the compensation apply per-cabin, e.g. a double downgrade would be due 2x the compensation.

In the end, my flight did go as planned, in the booked cabin. I'm still concerned about this as an ongoing issue, though, because of the lack of clarity on what to expect both generally and specifically with regard to Avios bookings and 241.

It just seems like another symptom of the corporate culture shifting towards cost-cutting wherever legally possible, whether or not it's right by the customer or the brand.

stevendorechester

There is a difference between an airline on occasion selling a seat on a sold out flight to a high level flyer without absolutely causing an oversell situation. Airlines who do this usually ask for 6-24 hours notice so that they can find ways to re-route passengers on an overbooked flight. It' s another thing to deliberately sell an upgrade at the gate with the intent of downgrading a passenger. I understand downgrades do happen but if this happened to me I would take walk off the plane at the last second and force the gate agent to offload my bags and re-do the paperwork.

I know that the COC does may allow them to do this but contracts are not absolute. Here is an example: I buy a ticket to a sporting event months out, the day before the game demand surges and the team decides to cancel my ticket electronically and resell it for more money, and I find out when I try to get into the venue. When I bought the ticket, it was clearly stated on the ticket that they can refuse me access with or without refund for any reason, and by purchasing this ticket I have agreed to this. And why not, it' s a good business decision for them to do so. I' m pretty sure they wouldn't get away with it for very long.

So if a gate agent wants to do this and earn a commission in the process, then they should do when there are open seats or get the passenger to agree. If this practice becomes more widespread, what' s stopping an airline in North America from creating an algorithm that calculates, for every passenger seated in a premium cabin on every flight the potential refund due in case of downgrade ( sometimes the refund can be nil when full Y fares for that one sector are used if the passenger has a discounted ticket) and simply selling upgrades for more than the value of the cost to downgrade. It would be a smart business decision, but I don' t think it would be allowed for very long regardless of COC.

MSPeconomist

The EC261 downgrade regulations have the unintended consequence of incentivizing double or even triple downgrades to minimize the number of passengers who must be paid the 75% downgrade refund. Yet I suspect that fixing this isn't high priority as there would be much more public sympathy for passengers who are unable to travel as scheduled (IDBs) compared to those who purchase FC tickets somehow and then are forced to travel in only business class.

memesweeper

Thank you — I think this is the closest we have to an answer to the @thefuzzylogic ’s question. If you are faced with a downgrade, you can decline it, leaving BA no option but to deny you boarding. IDB carries reasonable compensation.

Globaliser

That's all very well in theory, but in practice that can often be more easily said than done. If you are supposed to be at work in the morning, for example, declining the DG and taking the IDB instead may not be the sensible option in the circumstances.

corporate-wage-slave

According to BA's conditions of carriage you may have something arguable, but note this isn't my understanding of the law. EC261 doesn't offer this protection, and you've made a read-across that refusing the downgrade, and therefore making BA "deny boarding" equals IDB. While I suspect that read-across would be accepted in some courts (and perhaps BA wouldn't want to find out), nevertheless I personally feel this statement is best wrapped in a lot of caution. I wouldn't rely on it until I've seen an appellate decision.

I'm sticking to my previous post upthread: viz. EC261 does allow airlines to downgrade, you can ask BA to rebook to a later flight (and they will do this, that's not in dispute), moreover on endorseable tickets (not redemptions) you can be endorsed over to other carriers if the airport staff are kept on side. Right of care probably applies (but may need to be claimed after the event). EC261 downgrade reimbursement also applies to 2-4-1, BA doesn't dispute that aspect, but there is dispute as to the precise calculation.