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Competition trying to assail the BA high contribution fortress

Competition trying to assail the BA high contribution fortress

Old Feb 4, 2017, 2:45 am
  #1  
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Competition trying to assail the BA high contribution fortress

There has been quite a bit of criticism of BA's latest enhancements from BoB to F service changes, but in terms of competition, one of the key arguments against AF was that you could not pre-assign your seat for some silly reason. Well, now FB gold and platinum can preassign their seat in all travel classes on flights within Europe except domestics (hopefully the domestic exception will end soon). This is true including in the equivalent of BA HBO fares.

AFKL have also just launched their own super-status in answer to HON and GGL, which is called Ultimate. FB being FB there are scarce details for the moment but for high flyers, particularly those not based in London and there are many on this thread, that might be one to watch and consider.

Qualification seems to be 360k level miles over two years. MAN-LAX via CDG in business class will typically earn you 17,900 to 23,500 level miles return depending on fare type, so 8-10 such returns a year or equivalent will get you that Ultimate status, which is roughly in line with GGL qualification. Of course, FB earnings are distance based so it would go faster if you go to SCL, TYO, CPT, or SIN, and slower if you go to JFK, TLV, YUL, or DXB.

Details (or, so far, lack thereof as the case might be!) of both the new seat selection and Ultimate status are of course on the FB forum, but I thought it was worth mentioning here specifically because I have now heard two firm claims (and several more tentative ones) that the timing of those new (genuine) enhancements is aimed to specifically capitalise on the deterioration of the BA product and perceived dissatisfaction amongst high contribution passengers. In other words, competitors now feel that the BA fortress is assailable in a way that it was not until recently.

For full disclosure, I should add that I am personally not convinced so am not currently interested in seeking FB ultimate status (with my flying pattern, I easily could), and I am not making any prediction on the success of their new charm offensive to high contribution passengers, but I know several people who have told me that they are switching.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:03 am
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It would be interesting if this was coordinated with Delta too?
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:18 am
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Originally Posted by Dave_C
It would be interesting if this was coordinated with Delta too?
I think all 'super statuses' are normally airline specific in benefits, including GGL despite occasional experience of CK treatment for transfers, but qualification is for all level miles so DL flights (or any other Skyteam for that matter, with pretty good coverage across continents) would qualify, as would presumably do qualifying spend on AFKL Amex cards (need a bank account in France or Netherlands).
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:18 am
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Very interesting, orbitmic. I wonder if AFKL have been reading the BA forum for inspiration?
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:25 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
I think all 'super statuses' are normally airline specific in benefits, including GGL despite occasional experience of CK treatment for transfers, but qualification is for all level miles so DL flights (or any other Skyteam for that matter, with pretty good coverage across continents) would qualify, as would presumably do qualifying spend on AFKL Amex cards (need a bank account in France or Netherlands).
I've had more CK support from AA than I have had Special Services from BA as a GGL!
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:36 am
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK
Very interesting, orbitmic. I wonder if AFKL have been reading the BA forum for inspiration?
To be honest, I think that signs of BA pax displeasure is not, despite what some repeat, confined to those virtual walls! I believe most airlines spy on one another's twitter feed etc and the media is full of pretty damning stories too!

More seriously, however, AF has actually actively relied on Flyertalkers' perceptions and comparisons for years. They organised a huge Flyertalk do a few years ago which was attended by the airline's no2 and made it to the onboard magazine, and the people in charge of AF products and services have been extremely proactive in dialoguing with FTers as well as other frequent flyers (including both AF high flyers and people with perceptions of the competition). Without betraying any secret, in recent years, they have used it as constructive process to define key elements such as the new P experience, the latest European seat, menu concepts, the contents of toiletry bags, automated missing bags claims systems that enable you to start the process without queuing (quite useful in case of big disruptions), etc.

They have organised meetings to foster dialogue between passengers and every corner of the airline personnel from top management to cabin crew and ground personnel. At every level, they have even been extremely keen to get as much criticism as possible in as bold terms as possible, which I personally suspect has something to do with product improvements in recent years.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 3:45 am
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With KL starting highIsh frequency E190 flights from LCY, I'm sure they'll be more interest from London based flyers.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 7:13 am
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Originally Posted by richardwft
With KL starting highIsh frequency E190 flights from LCY, I'm sure they'll be more interest from London based flyers.
London-based is such a hard market to get because of course, the attractiveness of nonstop is huge, and on that front, BA is and will remain arch-dominant, but on the margins, even London might even lose small numbers of high contribution flyers to the competition, especially if we are indeed talking of people working near LCY who might feel that a 1h hop with 10 min check in deadline could be not so much worse than crossing London to reach LHR with a far more hectic check in/security limit. Still, I'd expect that to be only a small proportion of London-based people.

However, when it comes to, say, from/to GVA, NCE, BCN, LIN, BRU, etc all of which see very high numbers of high contribution flyers and limited nonstop options compared to the 'mega hubs' of LHR, FRA, CDG, ZRH, and AMS, any switch from BA to competitors could be painful for the bottom line.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 7:21 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
However, when it comes to, say, from/to GVA, NCE, BCN, LIN, BRU, etc all of which see very high numbers of high contribution flyers and limited nonstop options compared to the 'mega hubs' of LHR, FRA, CDG, ZRH, and AMS, any switch from BA to competitors could be painful for the bottom line.
But are there many in those places who really are particularly loyal to BA? I gather from your posts, for example, that you tend to use other airlines a lot already, depending on what suits best. I would expect most high spending customers do too, no?
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 7:46 am
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The thought of transferring at CDG will likely dissuade many; the terminal layout at CDG is really annoying and transferring is more painful than a T5 transit. Throw in the likelihood of a slopey seat and lounges that are not bad, but not amazing (except in F), I would be inclined to go non-stop on BA. But where AF do well is their wider range of destinations, particularly Africa, where they are often the most attractive option (OUA, FIH, LFW etc).
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 7:50 am
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Originally Posted by Ldnn1
But are there many in those places who really are particularly loyal to BA? I gather from your posts, for example, that you tend to use other airlines a lot already, depending on what suits best. I would expect most high spending customers do too, no?
I'd say that yes, BA has historically taken a higher share of the connecting high contribution West European traffic than both AFKL and LHLXOS (I expect LHLXOS to be stronger in central Europe).

You are right that I have never been an exclusive flyer for any airline but loyalty does not have to be and I am CCR cardholder (and most primarily on BA rather than OW partners) for a reason. I - and many others - built primary loyalty to BA over the years for a variety of reasons: full flat beds in J, comparatively good BAEC programme, historically good treatment of GGL. There is a reason why BA has such large C cabins on LHR-NCE and LHR-GVA flights for instance (on NCE routes, 12-18 rows of C is not unusual, even though 7-12 is the most routine level), and despite strong o/d C traffic, it is primarily connecting. Moreover, remember that all of the airports I took as example have high premium pax both as origin and destination.

For instance, my understanding is that NCE is actually the first location for GGL in France, higher than Paris, and that BA competes on equal terms with AF for premium traffic despite the natural advantage of the national player (corp contracts etc).

As mentioned, London, Paris, and Frankfurt as just really hard markets to crack for non-dominant players, but more than half of long haul premium traffic in Europe is connecting, and with BA having largely been recognised as the historically dominant EU3 player to date, should LH or AF manage to get some shares back, it could make the difference between profit and losses on some routes.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 8:43 am
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I suspect this may be attractive to those based outside London and in Europe, who are BAEC members.

For example, I'm GCH for nearly 3 years now after 2 as SCH. Moved to AMS last year but continued to choose BA where it was within the bounds of reasonableness, requalified as Gold through 2018. Lots of MAN-LHR-AMS runs for personal and 5-6 LH in WTP or J (and 1 GUF to F.) However this year, there's just not enough differentiation to use BA on SH unless the schedule or price makes it the only option. This is new for me, I used to pay more and travel longer to fly BA. Now, I'm just not motivated to and frankly it's more convenient to do RTM or AMS direct for the same price (KL) or half the price (BE.)

Before FB's 'April Fool's Day' debacle, FB was very attractive to me being based near LBA at the time. KL has great regional coverage and personally I find AMS much better for connection (with the exception of BA domestic T5-T5)

I'm now AZ top tier (status match) which is SkyTeam Elite + and have re qualified for mid tier comfortably (still STE+) - I'm considering sticking with ST and letting BA drop to silver. I recently tried both KL and AZ business class and they were pretty good. I was very impressed with Alitalia actually, though that's to be expected as they're loss making. KL was indeed very good though.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 4:40 pm
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Very interesting information orbitmic. It does appear that AF/KL might be on the upward curve after hitting rock bottom a few years ago customer experience wise. BA still seems hell bent on diving to the bottom and they still seem to have a ways to go. But there still is one huge problem for me with AF and that is the slopey J seat that they are still flying around. Until I know for sure that it's guaranteed that I would be would be getting the BEST seat from YYZ AF is still a no go for my TATL bookings along with LH. I do like the KL J seat from YYZ though.
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Old Feb 4, 2017, 5:15 pm
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
More seriously, however, AF has actually actively relied on Flyertalkers' perceptions and comparisons for years. They organised a huge Flyertalk do a few years ago which was attended by the airline's no2 and made it to the onboard magazine, and the people in charge of AF products and services have been extremely proactive in dialoguing with FTers .
Originally Posted by Crampedin13A
But there still is one huge problem for me with AF and that is the slopey J seat that they are still flying around.
AF obviously totally ignored what was said by that group of Flyertalkers then.
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Old Feb 5, 2017, 10:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Crampedin13A
But there still is one huge problem for me with AF and that is the slopey J seat that they are still flying around. Until I know for sure that it's guaranteed that I would be would be getting the BEST seat ....
Thus you illustrate why BA has less to fear than many doom-mongers here claim. Even 17 years after the introduction of flat CW seats, many of their competitors cannot guarantee a flat seat on a long haul journey. BA may be lagging in product development or even declining in the views of many, but this consistency in a critical product feature is almost unmatched by another airline, and I strongly suspect Mr Cruz knows this.
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