msm2000uk

What has happened to the BA response?

M

Fitch

Indeed ! Let's hope Raffles hasn't been on the receiving end of a super-injunction

LimitingFactor

This thread has me rather worried now. Have made a 2-4-1 redemption myself for a group of three of us to MCO with the return leg on a end of half term Saturday. Our party won't be pleasant if one or more of us are downgraded.

Fitch

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Don't let it spoil your anticipation - there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, so worrying is a waste of brain space...

The aircraft could equally well have half the loos out of action, rude crew and not enough meals loaded, but 99% of the time the flight will be perfectly fine
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corporate-wage-slave

Yes, this is the problem with threads like this. And without a few numbers - which we probably won't get - it's difficult to say "you've only got a 1% chance of this happening". I don't know if it's 1% or not, but it's not 10% from my anecdotal perception of this. Certainly people are more likely to have bad weather or equipment disruption, and mostly the attitude there is "what can I do about the weather?". Those in CW 2-4-1 are much more likely to be upgraded than First being downgraded and we don't hear so much about that.

I did hear, last year, from a BA staff member involved in this area, that not one person got downgraded at T5 in First - for any reason - for days on end, and there are over 1,000 First seats leaving T5 every day in high season. So I suspect 1% won't be too far off the mark.

And the problem, as Fitch hints, is that if you aren't a frequent First flyer - and despite what we see in this forum, very few people are - then part of the enjoyment of First travel is the anticipation stage. If passengers go through a "well it may not happen?" phase thanks to threads like this, then that's puts an unnecessary dampener on the whole event. When it does happen then this forum is (I think) a great place to handle any necessary remediation, and in particular if we get enough information we can, for example, stop BA from thinking that the 2-4-1 voucher has limited value.

But that's very different from putting out the view this happens on a daily basis. Broadly speaking BA only allows overbooking in First by 1 seat from a distance, which it then reduces to 0 in the days leading up to departure. If a flight is F3 on Wednesday then on Friday they may have taken the overbook seat away, and either sold 2 late tickets (some corporate travel policies still specify First) or offered them for Avios/UuA. Much more likely is that it's connected to the far more important and numerically larger CW cabin, so they want to continue selling CW knowing some may end up in First, if the push comes to the shove. In any case, what BA wants to sell isn't the same as what it actually does sell, and is only vaguely based on the number of seats involved.

Elegance645

I used to frequent these forums many moons ago when my life revolved around flying for business. I remember PUCCI GALORE joining too. New roles saw my travelling reduced from Being BA Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hilton etc etc. yes I used to always have row 1 available and know I would get a seat. Sunday afternoons were spent in the exec lounge or other airline lounges with a colleague reading the papers drinking champagne but missing a Sunday roast and watching the Children playing. Holidays where possible didn't involve too much flying as Mrs C was also hopping on and off flights for over 30 years but didn't think KLM scheme was worth joining . but finally she did and we now have guaranteed C with them whenever we fly for reasons too long to explain. I actually only joined the BA exec club over 25 years ago for a meal choice!! Air miles? Tier points? nope.....

So the family have left the nest (do they ever) and its now time to occasionally reap the rewards so to speak for missing out on many things we sacrifice for a career. This forthcoming trip is the first time Mrs C will have travelled in First hence the pre emptive questions for which I am as ever grateful for the knowledgeable responses from my learned friends. So next time you see a "lowly blue" strolling on to a flight, not rushing with papers everywhere, trying to store his battered carry on minus the 7 or 8 elite tags on your luggage don't sigh and roll your eyes as he/she could probably amuse you with his tales of travel before lie flat beds and T5 and LCY. Bae ATP anyone? Dan Air hot breakfasts on LGW. SAA 747's with the cockpit doors open pilot chatting to me about the best golf courses.

Raffles

Surprisingly, the Press Office is finding that the lawyers do not want to put pen to paper.

They did send me a statement yesterday which I refuse to insult the intelligence of my readers by publishing.

It doesn't really matter. Next week my contributor will be back from holiday and will make his 261 claim. BA either pays this immediately - which gives us a referencable example of companion vouchers getting reimbursement - or they refuse, at which point I can run a long series of articles about the Small Claims case which will be a PR mess for BA.

BA is refusing to admit that FLY prioritises redemptions for downgrades but this is at odds with verbal statements made by various duty managers to people who have been downgraded.

strichener

I think we can take from this all that we need to.

corporate-wage-slave

Many thanks for that broad sweep, as a forum it is the case we sometimes get swept into a fulcrum with ever decreasing circles of focus, and it wouldn't harm to get the wider perspective occasionally. (Un)fortunately in my case I was also there first time around, and I certainly recall the sorts of things you mention there, including the straightforward ability to ask the captain to see certain things from the flight deck, be it Mont Blanc or Ponta Delgada.

msm2000uk

Thanks for the update!

M

FlyboyStu

My wife and I were downgraded following a cancellation on an Avios and Amex 2-4-1 booking; details elsewhere in this and other threads. BA have paid the cancellation EC261 compensation, seat selection fees and some cash as part reimbursement of the surcharges on the ticket. They refused to recognise the value of the 2-4-1. I got the 'final offer' email required in order to take them to CEDR last week, and lodged my CEDR case immediately thereafter. CEDR have this morning confirmed that my case meets their criteria and have given BA 14 days to respond. It is my hope that this case might resolve before the end of March. We already have a MCOL case successfully arguing that the Amex 2-4-1 has equivalent Avios value (see bernardh); I am trying to get CEDR to conclude the same, partly because it's an easier and less threatening route for others to follow.

I will keep you posted on developments, although I suspect that doing so on here may harden BA's stance with me.

corporate-wage-slave

That is a risk, though I don't think BA is quite as all-seeing, all-knowing as some may suspect. If you don't feel comfortable about it, you could perhaps just post at the end of the process, since that's the point at which it really matters; but I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested in how this plays out.

So many thanks for the update. CEDR's service level for the first stage, now completed, is 15 working days, and they appear only to have used less than 5 of those days.

• BA have 10 working days / 2 weeks normally to respond as you indicate. This response is either a settlement outline or a defence.
• If it's a defence all documentation goes back to FlyboyStu, and he has 10 working days to respond, though he doesn't need to use all of that time.
• So long as no new material is brought late into the process, a final 10 days is needed for the CEDR arbitrator to make a decision, based on paperwork.

So that suggests the process from deadlock letter to arbitration result could take 5 or 6 weeks, assuming BA use the full time and the complainant and CEDR use 5 days.

Raffles

bernardh has almost certainly signed a confidentiality order as part of his settlement.

What we need is someone to take it to MCOL, because the settlement will not be confidential. The snag is that if BA makes a good settlement offer this is likely to count against you if you refuse it.

I'm not sure if being unwilling to be party to a confidentiality agreement is strong enough grounds for continuing, ie telling MCOL that you accept BA's settlement terms but want MCOL to impose it, rather than you voluntarily agreeing to it, because you are not then restricted in your ability to discuss it.

bernardh

Who me? I didn't sign any confidentiality agreement, so I am happy to discuss! (I've just given details of the MCOL claim to CWS offline.)

Ancient Observer

Elegance645

I agree completely.

Were you in the group that was told something like "if you keep your Gold card for 3 more years you can have lifetime silver" ?

I was. I kept my gold card for the required time, during which time BA quietly withdrew the offer.