BA/AA Accommodation/Downgrade from Paid F: Who owes me money?
Jan 13, 2017, 9:28 am
#31
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
Here's what I sent off to BA w/r/t the downgrade through their online complaint form. Comments??
I am hereby filing a EC/261 claim for reimbursement for an involuntary downgrade.
I am making this claim for all three family members on my booking reference - Gregory Nelson, XXXX Nelson, and XXXX Nelson.
We experienced an involuntary downgrade on the LHR-DFW segment of our journey.
Due to a delayed arrival on the DXB-LHR segment, we were unable to fly on our original LHR-DFW segment on BA 0193. However, we were rebooked onto BA 1520 (operated by American Airlines) into J class, rather than our ticketed F class.
No explanation was provided, other than that BA had requested only J class from AA for our rebooking. Per the AA agent, there were at least 2 F seats open at the time of rebooking, but these were not offered to us.
Therefore, we involuntarily travelled in a class of service lower than the class of service for which we had a confirmed reservation.
I held a confirmed reservation for the flights, I presented myself at the check-in desk in a timely manner, all passengers were at the boarding gate before the requested time, and BA most definitely did NOT provide us with any information on our rights.
We had reservations in First Class, but actually traveled in Business class. We did NOT receive any refund whatsoever as a consequence of this downgrading.
The price of our round-trip ticket, including taxes and fees, was US$ 8628.66 per person.
I hereby declare that this information is true and accurate in all respects for all passengers concerned.
I am making this claim for all three family members on my booking reference - Gregory Nelson, XXXX Nelson, and XXXX Nelson.
We experienced an involuntary downgrade on the LHR-DFW segment of our journey.
Due to a delayed arrival on the DXB-LHR segment, we were unable to fly on our original LHR-DFW segment on BA 0193. However, we were rebooked onto BA 1520 (operated by American Airlines) into J class, rather than our ticketed F class.
No explanation was provided, other than that BA had requested only J class from AA for our rebooking. Per the AA agent, there were at least 2 F seats open at the time of rebooking, but these were not offered to us.
Therefore, we involuntarily travelled in a class of service lower than the class of service for which we had a confirmed reservation.
I held a confirmed reservation for the flights, I presented myself at the check-in desk in a timely manner, all passengers were at the boarding gate before the requested time, and BA most definitely did NOT provide us with any information on our rights.
We had reservations in First Class, but actually traveled in Business class. We did NOT receive any refund whatsoever as a consequence of this downgrading.
The price of our round-trip ticket, including taxes and fees, was US$ 8628.66 per person.
I hereby declare that this information is true and accurate in all respects for all passengers concerned.
Jan 13, 2017, 11:30 am
#32
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Bronze
Posts: 1,090
I'm disappointed to hear that this has happened and will pass this on to be followed up.
A couple of points. As there were large numbers of connections from the DXB flight that needed to be managed, we would indeed give the hosts a list of customers who have been rebooked so that they can inform the customers and direct them accordingly and not have customers queuing to be rebooked unnecessarily. In this case, it should have been noted to the hosts where customers could not have been rebooked into their original class.
The agent was correct in directing you to T3 but it is that manner in which they spoke to you that appears to be an issue. For the record, BA are unable to print AA boarding passes unless it was part of the original transaction. Where a customer is rebooked to another carrier due to missed connections, we do have to direct them to that carrier for the boarding pass. There are times when we may be able to work with AA to get the boarding pass issued in advance and available for collection but not a guarantee.
With regards to the J seats, again, this should have been communicated to you properly. As you stated, AA had 2 F seats but there were 3 on your booking. When the rebooking took place, they system would indicate that there wasn't the inventory to rebook into F. The agent then held the J seats. This should have been explained to you had the host been properly briefed.
The AA agent in T3 should have been able to also explained that, but clearly didn't explain it adequately either. This is clearly a failing by both us and AA. Wasn't the AA desk in T3 pre or post security? If post security, I'm surprised that the AA agent wouldn't have sought the assistance of the BA agents in T3, just a few desks away to look at alternatives or assistance in explaining what happened.
A couple of points. As there were large numbers of connections from the DXB flight that needed to be managed, we would indeed give the hosts a list of customers who have been rebooked so that they can inform the customers and direct them accordingly and not have customers queuing to be rebooked unnecessarily. In this case, it should have been noted to the hosts where customers could not have been rebooked into their original class.
The agent was correct in directing you to T3 but it is that manner in which they spoke to you that appears to be an issue. For the record, BA are unable to print AA boarding passes unless it was part of the original transaction. Where a customer is rebooked to another carrier due to missed connections, we do have to direct them to that carrier for the boarding pass. There are times when we may be able to work with AA to get the boarding pass issued in advance and available for collection but not a guarantee.
With regards to the J seats, again, this should have been communicated to you properly. As you stated, AA had 2 F seats but there were 3 on your booking. When the rebooking took place, they system would indicate that there wasn't the inventory to rebook into F. The agent then held the J seats. This should have been explained to you had the host been properly briefed.
The AA agent in T3 should have been able to also explained that, but clearly didn't explain it adequately either. This is clearly a failing by both us and AA. Wasn't the AA desk in T3 pre or post security? If post security, I'm surprised that the AA agent wouldn't have sought the assistance of the BA agents in T3, just a few desks away to look at alternatives or assistance in explaining what happened.
Jan 13, 2017, 11:35 am
#33
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
A positive comment:
Bad news: BA hosed me even further by dropping my AAdvantage numbers off the re-booked ticket. Nothing is shocking me anymore.
Good news: However, I called AA to get that cleared up, and they credited my account with the relevant AA miles (in original routing and class) while still on the phone. Particularly critical since my wife has an upcoming trip shortly, and needed the last segment to make elite status for 2017.
Amusingly, by AA's records, they are still standing by their assertion that I did indeed take the original flight from LHR-DFW. That sets a new record of connecting in LHR in a mere negative 14 minutes.
Bad news: BA hosed me even further by dropping my AAdvantage numbers off the re-booked ticket. Nothing is shocking me anymore.
Good news: However, I called AA to get that cleared up, and they credited my account with the relevant AA miles (in original routing and class) while still on the phone. Particularly critical since my wife has an upcoming trip shortly, and needed the last segment to make elite status for 2017.
Amusingly, by AA's records, they are still standing by their assertion that I did indeed take the original flight from LHR-DFW. That sets a new record of connecting in LHR in a mere negative 14 minutes.
Jan 13, 2017, 11:59 am
#34
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
The agent was correct in directing you to T3 but it is that manner in which they spoke to you that appears to be an issue.
In the thread up until now, there was a general assumption that BA Flight Connections in T5 should have been able to "hook me up" and just failed to do so.
Now that you've clarified that BA Flight Connections was going to be of no use to me for this situation, she was right to shoo me away rather than waste my time.
With regards to the J seats, again, this should have been communicated to you properly. As you stated, AA had 2 F seats but there were 3 on your booking. When the rebooking took place, they system would indicate that there wasn't the inventory to rebook into F. The agent then held the J seats. This should have been explained to you had the host been properly briefed.
Beyond that, it's unclear why, once it was impossible to book all the passengers in F, they ALL get knocked down to J.
The AA agent in T3 should have been able to also explained that, but clearly didn't explain it adequately either. This is clearly a failing by both us and AA.
Wasn't the AA desk in T3 pre or post security? If post security, I'm surprised that the AA agent wouldn't have sought the assistance of the BA agents in T3, just a few desks away to look at alternatives or assistance in explaining what happened.
I actually DID chat up the BA agents in T3 post-security, once the steam out of my head had cooled off. I tried to seek out counsel regarding getting a settlement for my involuntary downgrade. They were the ones who first told me that, since I purchased the ticket from AA , AA owed me for that.
Although they later allowed that BA may be on the hook, which appears to be the overwhelming consensus on here.
Last edited by Gregory Nelson; Jan 13, 2017 at 12:15 pm
Jan 13, 2017, 12:14 pm
#35
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
That's good. It's a lot longer than necessary and there is no reason not to submit the two EC 261/2004 claims at the same time.
One sentence for each is all that's necessary as the burden is on the operating carrier.
OP may also claim for cancellation (delay) compensation at his final ticketed destination of DFW. Thus, another EUR 1,800. (Payable at current exchange rates in $).
Unlike others, I would not waste the bandwidth on a BA complaint for a whole host of reasons until at least the first phase of the EC 261/2004 claim is dealt with. These things are best dealt with as a plain matter of right.
Even if everything was handled properly, OP still had F tickets and J seats and his flight was delayed. Whether the hot towels were hot enough is irrelevant.
One sentence for each is all that's necessary as the burden is on the operating carrier.
OP may also claim for cancellation (delay) compensation at his final ticketed destination of DFW. Thus, another EUR 1,800. (Payable at current exchange rates in $).
Unlike others, I would not waste the bandwidth on a BA complaint for a whole host of reasons until at least the first phase of the EC 261/2004 claim is dealt with. These things are best dealt with as a plain matter of right.
Even if everything was handled properly, OP still had F tickets and J seats and his flight was delayed. Whether the hot towels were hot enough is irrelevant.
Jan 13, 2017, 12:43 pm
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
I filed a similarly-worded EC/261 claim for the delay, which worked out to just under 5 hours from the original schedule.
I then filed a "general complaint", but upon reflection, that was probably not value-added.
As you illustrate, it just confuses the issue beyond the 2 clear points where BA failed to deliver - class of service and meeting the schedule.
Jan 14, 2017, 6:54 am
#37
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
While poking around the details of EC 261/2004, I came across this point in Article 14:
There was an entire flight of people on DXB-LHR affected by the delay. I sure as hell didn't see anyone from BA distributing the specified notice.
Isn't that dirty pool on BA's part??
2. An operating air carrier denying boarding or cancelling a flight shall provide each passenger affected with a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with this Regulation. It shall also provide each passenger affected by a delay of at least two hours with an equivalent notice. The contact details of the national designated body referred to in Article 16 shall also be given to the passenger in written form.
Isn't that dirty pool on BA's part??
Jan 14, 2017, 7:03 am
#38
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Posts: 63,798
I'd focus on the core of your claim. The reason, incidentally, why I said that the downgrade reimbursement should be handled separately is there are two reimbursement rates at play here, BA's own internal calculation, and EC261. Both require specialist staff and can take months to work out. Therefore you may want to move MCOL or CEDR on them sooner (see main thread) to chivy them along. Unless I'm very much mistaken, BA's internal calculation isn't the best one in your case, generally it is the more generous but not here I think, but it's particularly tricky to calculate.
Jan 14, 2017, 7:38 am
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
Point taken. I'm just looking for more things to be angry about with BA.
Shame, really, since I was quite pleased with the service and travel on the 3 BA legs of my journey. Yes, even the delayed leg.
I clearly made a choice to spend the substantial extra coin to fly BA First, even with the questionable value-for-money calculation. I certainly hope they come through eventually.
---
FWIW, on my AAdvantage account, the EQDs credited for each leg were:
DFW-LHR $2509
LHR-DXB $1720
DXB-LHR $1720
LHR-DFW $2509 - Manually added by AA Platinum agent
So that should give a good ballpark figure for the value of the downgraded leg.
Shame, really, since I was quite pleased with the service and travel on the 3 BA legs of my journey. Yes, even the delayed leg.
I clearly made a choice to spend the substantial extra coin to fly BA First, even with the questionable value-for-money calculation. I certainly hope they come through eventually.
---
FWIW, on my AAdvantage account, the EQDs credited for each leg were:
DFW-LHR $2509
LHR-DXB $1720
DXB-LHR $1720
LHR-DFW $2509 - Manually added by AA Platinum agent
So that should give a good ballpark figure for the value of the downgraded leg.
Jan 16, 2017, 1:41 am
#40
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: JAX
Programs: Ex-BA/AA/CP/LY staff, BA Executive Club Blue, IHG Diamond, Marriott Silver, Chick-fil-A Red
Posts: 3,586
The agent was correct in directing you to T3 but it is that manner in which they spoke to you that appears to be an issue. For the record, BA are unable to print AA boarding passes unless it was part of the original transaction. Where a customer is rebooked to another carrier due to missed connections, we do have to direct them to that carrier for the boarding pass. There are times when we may be able to work with AA to get the boarding pass issued in advance and available for collection but not a guarantee.
With regards to the J seats, again, this should have been communicated to you properly. As you stated, AA had 2 F seats but there were 3 on your booking. When the rebooking took place, they system would indicate that there wasn't the inventory to rebook into F. The agent then held the J seats. This should have been explained to you had the host been properly briefed.
The AA agent in T3 should have been able to also explained that, but clearly didn't explain it adequately either. This is clearly a failing by both us and AA. Wasn't the AA desk in T3 pre or post security? If post security, I'm surprised that the AA agent wouldn't have sought the assistance of the BA agents in T3, just a few desks away to look at alternatives or assistance in explaining what happened.
The AA agent in T3 should have been able to also explained that, but clearly didn't explain it adequately either. This is clearly a failing by both us and AA. Wasn't the AA desk in T3 pre or post security? If post security, I'm surprised that the AA agent wouldn't have sought the assistance of the BA agents in T3, just a few desks away to look at alternatives or assistance in explaining what happened.
Yeah, there was no explaining of any kind, or even acknowledgement that I was being involuntarily downgraded. Also, no alternatives that would have avoided the downgrade were offered. Just "Go to AA. Off you go, now."
Beyond that, it's unclear why, once it was impossible to book all the passengers in F, they ALL get knocked down to J.
Sorry, but I don't know that I much care for finger-pointing at AA in this case. I don't know how that would have been communicated to the lady working the screen, based solely on a request for J seats.
Beyond that, it's unclear why, once it was impossible to book all the passengers in F, they ALL get knocked down to J.
Sorry, but I don't know that I much care for finger-pointing at AA in this case. I don't know how that would have been communicated to the lady working the screen, based solely on a request for J seats.
Jan 16, 2017, 2:28 am
#41
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: ±38,000 feet
Programs: LH HON, BA GGL, AF Plat, EK Plat
Posts: 6,428
Point taken. I'm just looking for more things to be angry about with BA.
Shame, really, since I was quite pleased with the service and travel on the 3 BA legs of my journey. Yes, even the delayed leg.
I clearly made a choice to spend the substantial extra coin to fly BA First, even with the questionable value-for-money calculation. I certainly hope they come through eventually.
---
FWIW, on my AAdvantage account, the EQDs credited for each leg were:
DFW-LHR $2509
LHR-DXB $1720
DXB-LHR $1720
LHR-DFW $2509 - Manually added by AA Platinum agent
So that should give a good ballpark figure for the value of the downgraded leg.
Shame, really, since I was quite pleased with the service and travel on the 3 BA legs of my journey. Yes, even the delayed leg.
I clearly made a choice to spend the substantial extra coin to fly BA First, even with the questionable value-for-money calculation. I certainly hope they come through eventually.
---
FWIW, on my AAdvantage account, the EQDs credited for each leg were:
DFW-LHR $2509
LHR-DXB $1720
DXB-LHR $1720
LHR-DFW $2509 - Manually added by AA Platinum agent
So that should give a good ballpark figure for the value of the downgraded leg.
Jan 24, 2017, 10:00 am
#42
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: AAdvantage Lifetime Gold/Some Years Platinum
Posts: 995
Sorry for the bump, but I need some guidance.
So, 10 days after sending off the EC/261 claim, as seen in post #31, I get a response from BA.
It's a canned response with a link to their page allowing me to claim reimbursement for sandwiches from Boot's, phone calls, etc. due to the delay. That's it. ????
Any advice on how to steer BA Customer Service in a more productive direction?
So, 10 days after sending off the EC/261 claim, as seen in post #31, I get a response from BA.
It's a canned response with a link to their page allowing me to claim reimbursement for sandwiches from Boot's, phone calls, etc. due to the delay. That's it. ????
Any advice on how to steer BA Customer Service in a more productive direction?
Jan 24, 2017, 10:15 am
#43
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: ±38,000 feet
Programs: LH HON, BA GGL, AF Plat, EK Plat
Posts: 6,428
Sorry for the bump, but I need some guidance.
So, 10 days after sending off the EC/261 claim, as seen in post #31, I get a response from BA.
It's a canned response with a link to their page allowing me to claim reimbursement for sandwiches from Boot's, phone calls, etc. due to the delay. That's it. ????
Any advice on how to steer BA Customer Service in a more productive direction?
So, 10 days after sending off the EC/261 claim, as seen in post #31, I get a response from BA.
It's a canned response with a link to their page allowing me to claim reimbursement for sandwiches from Boot's, phone calls, etc. due to the delay. That's it. ????
Any advice on how to steer BA Customer Service in a more productive direction?
Jan 24, 2017, 11:05 am
#44
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oxon, UK
Programs: Mucci des canapes, Skywards Gold, BAEC, IC Plat Amb, LH FTV
Posts: 1,952
This, and other threads make it difficult to feel that BA are an organisation that has not lost its moral compass. Not for the original delay and poor ground handling but for the attempts to avoid providing due recompense. I recognise they long ago abandoned the concept of 'service recovery'
Jan 24, 2017, 11:32 am
#45
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pasadena, CA
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hyatt Plat, Amex Plat.
Posts: 651
I would not put up with this BA garbage from customer disservice. And since you are Stateside, I would take a trip to your local county judicial facility and file a small claims suit for the maximum amount you think you can possibly claim. You must serve our BA friends. Where do you serve, I hear you cry? Simples: CT Corporation, 1999 BRYAN ST., STE. 900 DALLAS, TX 75201 (if Plano is your residence). The clerk will tell you if you can use certified mail or if you need the Sheriff. Add the costs of filing and any service fees to the amount you are claiming.