Last edit by: KARFA
This thread focuses on experiences and reactions for the implementation of buy on board for shorthaul, mainly led by impressions taken from flying on board British Airways' shorthaul services.
An information thread exists for your questions, particularly if they are on factual matters, here:
Buy on board: Information guide for BA shorthaul economy services
If you have an opinion about the concept of Buy on Board, the right thread is:
Buy on board: Implemented on BA short haul - opinions on the concept
Photos of current BoB menu (September 2018) post #125 in information thread
An information thread exists for your questions, particularly if they are on factual matters, here:
Buy on board: Information guide for BA shorthaul economy services
If you have an opinion about the concept of Buy on Board, the right thread is:
Buy on board: Implemented on BA short haul - opinions on the concept
Photos of current BoB menu (September 2018) post #125 in information thread
Buy on board: Experiences and reactions from BA's shorthaul economy service
#466
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,383
Hi c-w-s ..... Well, my colleague is a savvy enough guy, and certainly understands that weird & wonderful things come into play (some perfectly logical, some less so) where airline ticket pricing is concerned ; but I don't think he's got too much time to analyse or play around with the numbers right now. Just needs to sort his travel - and is given free rein (within limits !) to do so.
LGW really is not much good to him in this case. He was just VERY surprised to see BA asking 328 for a sector that offers little (if any) difference service-wise - versus an EasyJet flight at 52.
LGW really is not much good to him in this case. He was just VERY surprised to see BA asking 328 for a sector that offers little (if any) difference service-wise - versus an EasyJet flight at 52.
#467
Join Date: Mar 2015
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 688
There is another factor. IS BOB HAVING AN IMPACT ON CE? Well it's to do with what we call our matrix, this is our crewing level. It's also a sore subject and may now be coming back to truly effect service. We all know about the previous dispute (I don't want to start a discussion on that BUT) BA changed our matrix by removing a cc on our short haul flights (and long haul). So now we have a situation where you can have 130 customers at the rear of an airbus 319 with only 3 cc, and the ICCM left to serve CE alone.
This does echo what an Easyjet cc said over the weekend. If you don't have enough cc you have already lost the battle before it has started. So, is BA going to roster above the legal 50 pax per cc? How does that fit their cost model (savings) of cutting out full service to pay for an extra cc? And if they did, are there enough cc to do it (in light of the MF strike and high turnover of MF staff that the current projected growth of personnel in their investor presentation looks like pie in the sky thinking)? How many cc will decide selling BoB isn't what they signed up to, and it is the last straw that makes them walk?
It sounds like BA is being too smart for their own good, they cut costs, a partner takes on the risk. The paying with Avios was a master stroke, since a frequent/business traveler will see it as free, since they already have the points/points were earned on the company tab, and BA Management can then say it has been a raging success - from what FTers have reported of using their points on board, I suspect this is what is going to happen. Most of the customers don't support BoB, but if it doesn't directly cost them money they don't see it as a real problem.
But instead it appears BA has skimped on the POS equipment, not followed the model of other LCC's of having enough cc, and the biggest screw up, not tested it in the field before rolling it out.
I was working for a supplier to BA, providing an airside service in the UK, which we were charging a stupidly low price for. BA asked for us to submit a tender take over this service for the rest of the world, along with looking the same for Iberia, which at this present time was being done by a mix of 3rd parties, and in house. It landed on my plate to looking at it at a technical level, cost it and the feasibility of doing so. I can understand why BA wanted this, one company to take on the risk, one company to manage, one company to beat up, it was projected it would save IAG money, and finally a few more back office employees that can be made redundant. The company turn the tender down, as the risk wasn't worth it, and the hassle wasn't worth it.
#468
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,474
It's a bad example to use really. You'd be on slightly stronger ground on a service which has direct competition at LHR and which isn't full - there will be plenty of examples there that can be picked on. Where you would be on much stronger ground is in 3 months time, looking at Swiss v BA for fares and availability between LHR and GVA.
#469
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newcastle, UK
Programs: BA Silver, IHG Gold, Hilton Gold, Hertz 5*, Avis Preferred Plus, Amex Plat
Posts: 2,080
Thanks for your insights, Secretsquirrel.return. Fascinating!
This interests me. Presumably refunded food has to be one of these categories so that somebody can be 'blamed' (=charged if necessary) for the wastage? Supplier/ Crew/ DHL/ Supplier.
I wonder if there's scope for food/ drink that's found to be just 'not very nice'. Whether that's because it's stale (although officially 'in-date'), or badly made, or cheaply sourced. Or a tea that's made with lukewarm water. These are things that I would expect a normal sandwich shop on the ground to refund without question. I can imagine it being awkward asking the crew to the same.
I did have a porridge on easyJet the other day that was mistakenly over-filled with water, so it was really not edible. The crew happily made me a new one (and offered me the old one) but I guess it will have been marked down as crew error somewhere and the guilty crew will have been sent to the gulag. That sort of policy, blame culture, makes me feel uncomfortable.
I wonder if there's scope for food/ drink that's found to be just 'not very nice'. Whether that's because it's stale (although officially 'in-date'), or badly made, or cheaply sourced. Or a tea that's made with lukewarm water. These are things that I would expect a normal sandwich shop on the ground to refund without question. I can imagine it being awkward asking the crew to the same.
I did have a porridge on easyJet the other day that was mistakenly over-filled with water, so it was really not edible. The crew happily made me a new one (and offered me the old one) but I guess it will have been marked down as crew error somewhere and the guilty crew will have been sent to the gulag. That sort of policy, blame culture, makes me feel uncomfortable.
#470
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Programs: Tufty Club (Gold), BAGA Gymnastics level 4, 440yds swimming certificate
Posts: 2,533
Secretsquirrel.return
I'm particularly interested by this bit. Could you explain a little bit more. Is all of the uneaten food disposed of even if still within best-before? Just hot? Just after the return leg of a journey?
I despise food waste and am keen to learn more.
Thanks!
I'm particularly interested by this bit. Could you explain a little bit more. Is all of the uneaten food disposed of even if still within best-before? Just hot? Just after the return leg of a journey?
I despise food waste and am keen to learn more.
Thanks!
You will see crews of other airlines cooking all the hot food left when an aircraft is returning to base, rather than cooking to order, as its going to be wasted anyway. This saves them some of the hassle of taking hot food orders prior to any service on those sectors
#471
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seattle
Programs: BA GGL & LTG, EK Silver, HHonors Lifetime Diamond; Proudly Mucci Free - total nonsense
Posts: 862
I posted my complaint to customer relations tonight. Interestingly, on their website there was a special section in the complaint reason dropdown 'Buy on board issues'. So this must be hitting their systems hard already.
Will respond with any meaningful response I get. Though, I would really only see real confidence in the BA brand if some of those cost saving honchos quit/get fired; not just because of this debacle - but it is the final straw.
Will respond with any meaningful response I get. Though, I would really only see real confidence in the BA brand if some of those cost saving honchos quit/get fired; not just because of this debacle - but it is the final straw.
#472
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 19
Hopefully someone will correct me if I've got this wrong, but Tourvest is the main contractor here, not M&S. BA have an agreement with M&S to supply their food products to BA, but the overall logistics, point of sale, accountancy, stock management, is part of an agreement between BA and Tourvest. Tourvest also have the supply agreement for the drinks, hot and cold, alcohol or not, plus the tax free / Highlife Shop logistics (etc). Tourvest handle all the payment issues, presumably take their cut, and then pass the rest of the cash to BA, so that BA's involvement here is quite small in theory (the clever bit mentioned above). From a passenger perspective this should be invisible, so it's just FT uber-detail, and clearly BA must overall take responsibility for the customer experience.
If I've got that right, then Tourvest is probably in the frame, not least to get the Tourvest POS to work.
Just to complicate matters, it's another company, DHL, that is responsible for getting the products to the LHR aircraft, from a delivery perspective. So if there is no food / drink on board the finger then points to DHL.
There's a bit more about this in the Information thread.
If I've got that right, then Tourvest is probably in the frame, not least to get the Tourvest POS to work.
Just to complicate matters, it's another company, DHL, that is responsible for getting the products to the LHR aircraft, from a delivery perspective. So if there is no food / drink on board the finger then points to DHL.
There's a bit more about this in the Information thread.
As for the comments in regard to long haul by some posters, please wait and see. BA are in the process of a pay deal agreement with EF/LH (eurofleet/long haul ) this is going to impact the CW (club world) service routine as part of a productivity deal linked to the pay deal . We have already seen the erosion of LH service and product. There will be more to follow, but that's another thread and discussion.
Safe flying
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My username is not original I have used in memory of poster somewhere else who was a true hero to many at BA .
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The information posted here are my views and opinion . They do not reflect the official view or opinion or any other individual or company.
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Last edited by Secretsquirrel.return; Jan 17, 2017 at 2:05 pm
#473
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA, VS
Posts: 323
This happens on other airlines too, the food, whatever its best-before date, has been out of proper chilled storage for too long and is therefore 'wasted' at the end (whether its in date or not).
You will see crews of other airlines cooking all the hot food left when an aircraft is returning to base, rather than cooking to order, as its going to be wasted anyway. This saves them some of the hassle of taking hot food orders prior to any service on those sectors
You will see crews of other airlines cooking all the hot food left when an aircraft is returning to base, rather than cooking to order, as its going to be wasted anyway. This saves them some of the hassle of taking hot food orders prior to any service on those sectors
#474
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 19
Secretsquirrel.return a huge thank you for the detailed post and condolences to you for being stuck between some poor management decisions/implementation and the customer.
I'm particularly interested by this bit. Could you explain a little bit more. Is all of the uneaten food disposed of even if still within best-before? Just hot? Just after the return leg of a journey?
I despise food waste and am keen to learn more.
Thanks!
I'm particularly interested by this bit. Could you explain a little bit more. Is all of the uneaten food disposed of even if still within best-before? Just hot? Just after the return leg of a journey?
I despise food waste and am keen to learn more.
Thanks!
Now as for M&S product I can not say 100% but most of the fresh food has a very short shelf life and we have very strict handling guidelines in regard to chilling and storage. To maintain that onice food returns to DHL from the SH operation would be a nightmare. But I will find out this information for you .
Safe flying
edit : the M&S snacks and dry product is re used
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My username is not original I have used in memory of poster somewhere else who was a true hero to many at BA .
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The information posted here are my views and opinion . They do not reflect the official view or opinion or any other individual or company.
:::::::::::::::::::::::
Last edited by Secretsquirrel.return; Jan 17, 2017 at 2:06 pm
#475
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: somewhere north of London, UK
Programs: HH Gold, BA Silver, Accor Silver
Posts: 15,245
But i don't understand - if you have a plane with 160 pax onboard, you end up with 4 cabin crew.
That means either work one bar in the back and have two crew up front, or work two bars in the back and leave CE passengers to whistle.
Or am I missing something?
Thanks
Tony
#476
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,383
@Secretsquirrel.return - you deserve much respect for your honesty and conscientious approach ; but I sincerely hope that BA will provide the necessary equipment/resources - along with the courage to make corrections/revisions to current practice where appropriate - to enable you to deliver the sort of customer service you would clearly wish to.
Meanwhile this is not a pretty picture in so many aspects :
- bad planning & preparation for BoB itself leads to zero reliability of service
- an associated negative impact even on CE standards
- CC not given proper tools to do the job
- no inflight retail sales possible, in some cases
- an already demoralised crew needlessly embarrassed by passenger reaction
The saddest part is that - all cost-cutting issues aside - so much of this is self-inflicted, and could have been avoided, simply by a more intelligent & disciplined approach by management.
Meanwhile this is not a pretty picture in so many aspects :
- bad planning & preparation for BoB itself leads to zero reliability of service
- an associated negative impact even on CE standards
- CC not given proper tools to do the job
- no inflight retail sales possible, in some cases
- an already demoralised crew needlessly embarrassed by passenger reaction
The saddest part is that - all cost-cutting issues aside - so much of this is self-inflicted, and could have been avoided, simply by a more intelligent & disciplined approach by management.
Last edited by subject2load; Jan 16, 2017 at 5:24 am
#477
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: BAEC Silver, IHG Diamond
Posts: 7,699
Thanks for posting this as it's a question I posed way back in the thread.
But i don't understand - if you have a plane with 160 pax onboard, you end up with 4 cabin crew.
That means either work one bar in the back and have two crew up front, or work two bars in the back and leave CE passengers to whistle.
Or am I missing something?
Thanks
Tony
But i don't understand - if you have a plane with 160 pax onboard, you end up with 4 cabin crew.
That means either work one bar in the back and have two crew up front, or work two bars in the back and leave CE passengers to whistle.
Or am I missing something?
Thanks
Tony
#478
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 19
Thanks for posting this as it's a question I posed way back in the thread.
But i don't understand - if you have a plane with 160 pax onboard, you end up with 4 cabin crew.
That means either work one bar in the back and have two crew up front, or work two bars in the back and leave CE passengers to whistle.
Or am I missing something?
Thanks
Tony
But i don't understand - if you have a plane with 160 pax onboard, you end up with 4 cabin crew.
That means either work one bar in the back and have two crew up front, or work two bars in the back and leave CE passengers to whistle.
Or am I missing something?
Thanks
Tony
The loading of crew is based on a number of factors. Aircraft type, then CE load.
For example 160 as you mentioned on a A320 will only ever have 4 cc as long as the CE load is below 16 . There is where we have a issue, with a light CE load the 4th cc should go to the rear to help but as I mentioned above they will be ineffective on a double trolley. The one cc would stay in CE to do that service there should never be a cabin or galley unattended during a flight for an extended time. We have found with 4 crew no matter what the load on a fight with CE it's best if 2 cc work one bar with both POS and leave the rest of the crew to bring supplies as needed and take care of CE and the cabin duties.
Different crew on different days will do many different things as this is been dumped on on to make it work by the company. I hope that answers your question.
Safe flying
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My username is not original I have used in memory of poster somewhere else who was a true hero to many at BA .
:::::::::::::::::::::::
The information posted here are my views and opinion . They do not reflect the official view or opinion or any other individual or company.
:::::::::::::::::::::::
Last edited by Secretsquirrel.return; Jan 17, 2017 at 2:04 pm
#479
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mostly UK
Programs: Mucci Extraordinaire, Hilton Diamond, BA Gold (ex BD)
Posts: 11,203
I had a bacon roll on NCL-LHR, no issue at all. The crew took pre-orders for those wanting rolls (I think there was three of us). I think LGW-JER would definitely not get this offering. LBA and MAN is probably crew and load dependent.
#480
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: AA
Posts: 14,658
This I don't understand. So "we're going to take more money from you to move OR we're going to move you up when you didn't request it and then we are going to give you the absolute lowest priority of getting anything on the plane - not just in your own cabin."