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Pro-active Online Upgrade (POUG) tracking and discussion | 2017/18 thread

Pro-active Online Upgrade (POUG) tracking and discussion | 2017/18 thread

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Old Dec 22, 18, 3:36 am   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Last edit by: ttama
Wiki Link
2017 POUG rate tracker

Please add your own successful results to the follow list including the month/year when the POUG was offered to you. Please delete any figures from 2017 or earlier if you have a 2018 price. Previous data lives on via post 2.

UPDATED TO: Post #418

POUGs are offered via BA.com and the App Manage My Booking via a distinctive banner (example from MMB below). You cannot get a POUG by telephoning, however the service centres can complete a POUG which falls over mid transaction. They are offered on cash and Avios redemptions but typically not on complex routings, BA Holidays or travel agency bookings until OLCI stage. POUGs on Avios redemptions won't get you additional TPs/Avios, but they will on revenue tickets.



Short haul routes from LON to/from Europe
A price in pounds indicates a ticket issued from London, other currencies indicate prices for tickets issued overseas (e.g. singles or returns originating from CDG priced in Euros). Multiple prices indicate a range of fares are on offer. Note that LCY prices currently seem to be on a different basis to LGW and LHR (cheaper, in other words).
  • ABZ - £65 (to and from LHR, Mar 2017)
  • ACE -£119 (to LGW, Nov 2016)
  • AGP – £79 (Feb 2016, LCY), £99 (Oct 2018, ex-LGW) €119 (To LGW, July 2017)
  • AMS - £89 (Apr 2017/Nov 2017) ex LHR, £79 from LGW (Feb 2017), £69 for LCY-AMS (May 2017), £79 for LCY-AMS (Dec 2018),£69 for AMS-LCY (May 2017, June 2017), €79 for LCY-AMS (May), £79 for LHR-AMS (Oct 2018)
  • ANE - £69 (Mar 2016) ex LCY
  • ARN - £129 ex-LHR (July 2018), £129 ex-ARN (Aug 2018)
  • ATH - £149 - both ways (Jun 2017)
  • BCN – €109 from LGW (Feb 2016) £89 from LGW (May2017), £119 from LHR (Apr 2017), €140 (to LHR, Dec 2015), £89 (to LGW, May 2017), £89 (LGW-BCN/BCN-LGW Aug 2017)
  • BDS - £60 (March 2017)
  • BGO - £79 (Dec 2015)
  • BHD - £69 (Feb 2018), £69 (out and back LHR Jun, Aug and Oct 2018)
  • BLL - £69 (to LHR, Jul 2017)
  • BLQ - £69 (to LHR, Jun 2017), £89 (each way, Dec 2017)
  • BOD - £49 (Aug 2017
  • BRI - £60 (March 2017)
  • BRU - £129 (Jan 2016), €130 (Dec 2016) €89 (To LHR, May 2017)
  • BSL - £109 (to LHR, Jan 2017) CHF 190 (Feb 2016), CHF 169 (Dec 2018)
  • BUD - £149 (to LHR, Nov 2018), GBP149 (to BUD, December 2017)
  • CDG - £85 (Jan 2017), €115 (to LHR, Sep 2016), €109 (to LHR, May 2017)
  • CGN - €89 (to LGW, Aug 2018)
  • CHQ - £245 (Dec 2016)
  • CMF -
  • CPH - £109 (Jun 2017), £129 (to LHR, Jan 2017)
  • CTA - £89 (Jun 2017) €109 (to LGW, Jan 2017)
  • DBV - £89 LGW (Nov 2015)
  • DUB - £119 (to LHR, Feb 2017), £69 (to LHR, June 2017), £69 (out and back from LHR - Aug 2017), €89 (to LCY Aug 2018 on HBO fare), €99 (to Dublin from LHR Aug 2018 on HBO fare) £89 (Oct 2018)
  • DUS - £69 (to/from LHR, May 2018)) €79 (to LCY, Jul 2017) €155 (to LHR, Mar 2017)
  • EDI - £65 (Jan 2018 - from LGW), £70 (From LGW, Feb 2018), £60 (to LCY, May 2018), £70 (from LGW, May 2018), £69 (to LHR, June 2018), £59 (to LCY, Jul 2018), £69 (from LHR, Aug 2018)
  • FAO - €119 (to LGW, Jul 2017)
  • FCO - £139 (from LHR, Apr 2017), £89 (from LGW, Aug 2018)
  • FLR - £89 (Nov 2018)
  • FRA - £69 (to LCY Apr 2018) £49 (Oct 2017) / £49 and £50 (Aug 2017) /£49 (to LHR, Aug 2017), €109/145 (to LHR, Jan 2017/Feb 2017) / €79 (to LCY, Jul 2016). €59 to LHR (May 2017), £109 (from LHR, Aug 2018)
  • GIB - £149 (Oct 2018), £149 (to LHR Oct 2019)
  • GLA - £65 (to LHR, Mar 2017)
  • GOT – £109 (Dec 2018)
  • GVA - £129 (May 2017) £79 (Mar 2017), £89 (to LGW, Jan 2017) £129 (to LHR, May 2017), CHF99 (to LCY, Dec 2017), £139 (From LHR May 2018)
  • HAJ - £90 (Jan 2017) £99 (to LHR, Jun 2017) £109 (July 2018)
  • HAM - €69 (to LHR, April 2017) €79/£69 (from LHR, April/June 2017)
  • HEL – £120 (Apr 2017) (from/to LHR €169, April 2018) £159 (August 2018)
  • IBZ - £69 both ways (June 2016)
  • INN – £79 to INN, €89 to LHR (Feb 2018)
  • INV – £65 (Apr 2017), £79 (Jan 2018)
  • IST - £149 (Jun 2017), £109 (To LHR, Jul 2017), $169 (to LHR December 2018)
  • JER - £79 (Jan 2017), £79 (to LGW, Jul 2017)
  • JMK - £239 (from LHR Jun 2018), £239 (to LHR July 2018)
  • KBP - £179 (Jul 2017)
  • KEF - £169 (Apr 2017). Note system offered £239 but contact centre staff got the cost down!
  • LBA – £59 (both ways, Aug 2017)
  • LCA – £219 (to LHR, Feb 2017)
  • LED - £189 (Oct 2015)
  • LIN – £129 (Feb 2018) (To and From LHR), £129 (May 2018 for Sep), £119 (Jan 2019 from LCY)
  • LIG - £79 both ways (including Eastern operated in one direction) June 2018
  • LIS – £145 (Jan 2017) £85 (to LGW, Feb 2017) £139 (from LHR Nov 2018)
  • LPA - £199 (Dec 2017)
  • LUX -£139 (Nov 2016), £105 (to LUX, Jan 2017), £59 (each way, Mar 2018)
  • LYS - £120 (Dec 2016), £89 (March 2018), £89 (Nov 2018)
  • MAD - €89 MAD-LCY (Feb 2016), £79 LCY-MAD (Jan 2017), £159 LHR-MAD (Apr 2018). €169 LHR-MAD (Mar 2018), £159 MAD-LHR both ways from HBO Y (Oct 2018)
  • MAH - £129 (Jul 2017)
  • MAN - £59 (October 2018) offered in both directions. Same price from LCY (Dec 2018 - both directions)
  • MLA - €119 (Aug 2018)
  • MPL - £130 (Mar 2017)
  • MUC - £119 (Feb 2018)
  • MJV - £70 (Nov 2016 from HBO, also Feb 2017 same price).
  • MRS - £119 (ex-LHR, May 2018). £89 (Jul 2017), £109 (to LHR, Nov 2016 HBO, Weekend Daytrip ex LHR)
  • MXP - £149 (from/to LHR April 2018) £129 (Jun 2017)/ €109 (to LHR, Feb 2017) £99 (To LHR, Aug 2017)
  • NCE - £138 (May 2017), £125/149; £89 (to LHR, May 2017), £149 (from STN, Apr 2017) £89 (from LGW, May 2017, again June 2018) £69 (to LCY, May 2017)
  • NCL - £59 (from/to LHR, Aug 2018)
  • NTE - £80 (Mar 2017)
  • ORY - £85, €89, €119 (Jan 2017)
  • OSL - £129 (Apr 2017) £159 (To LHR, Apr 2017) £124 (NOK1379, OSL->LHR, Dec 2017), £129 (to OSL, Jan 2018 for May), £129 (May 2018 for Aug)
  • OTP - £129 (Nov 2018) usually £202-239,
  • PFO - £119 (Sep 2015)
  • PMI - €205 (Mar 2016, LHR), £69 (from LCY, Jul 2017)
  • PRG - £119 (Nov 2018)
  • PSA - £170 (Apr 2017)
  • PUY - £119 (Apr 2017)
  • RAK - £99 ( May 2018, from LGW) £99 ( Oct 2018, to LGW), £99 (Nov 2018 LHR-RAK)
  • RTM -
  • SOF - £149 (Jun 2017), €185 (to LHR, Feb 2017),
  • STR - £70 (Feb 2017) €115/£99 (to LHR, Jan 2017/Feb 2017) £109 (Either way Nov 2018)
  • SVG - £99 / NOK 720 (Dec 2015),
  • SZG -
  • TFS – €139 (to LGW, Mar 2017)
  • TIA –
  • TLL - £60 (Mar 2017), £79 (Aug 2017 for Nov)
  • TRN - €109 (to LGW Feb 2017)
  • TXL – €120 (to LHR, Feb 2017), £129 (Feb 2018, ex-LHR), €129 (from LHR, Sept 2017), £129 (to LHR, March 2018 for April)
  • UIP -
  • VCE - £89 (Mar 2017), €109 (to LGW, Feb 2016), £119 ex-LHR (Apr 2018)
  • VIE – £110 (Feb 2017) £159 (to LHR, May 2017) €129 (to LHR, April 2018) £129 (to LHR, from a Basic fare, Sept 2018)
  • VRN - €109 (Jul 2017)
  • WAW - £115 (Jan2017) / 475 PLN (£79) (Oct 2015) £109/139 (To LHR, Jun 2017)
  • ZAG - €130 ZAG-LHR Nov 2015
  • ZRH – £119 (To LHR, Jun 2017), £131 (Jan 2017) / £69 (from LCY Jan 2016) £69 (LCY July 2017), CHF189/£148 (To LHR, May 2018, Dec 2018)
  • ZTH - £135 (March 2017)


Long haul routes from LON to North America
(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • AUS - WTP $229 (Nov 2015), CW £473 (Feb 2015)
  • BOS - WTP £198 (Jul 2017), CW £352 ex-BOS (Jan 2018), CW £352 ex-LHR (Jan 2018)
  • BWI - WTP $248 to BWI / WTP $256 to LHR (Mar 2017), CW $306 to LHR (Jan 2018)
  • DFW - CW $850/£380 (Feb 2017/Mar 2017) £525 (Apr 2017)
  • EWR - WTP $256 (Jan 2016) see also JFK
  • JFK – WTP £279 (Oct 2018) and then down to £238 (Nov 2018) CW £359 (Jul 2017) see also EWR
  • IAD – WTP £190 / £216 (Feb 2017), £269 (Nov 2017) CW $525 (Jul 2017) WTP $171 (May 2018 •• on an Avios booking)
  • LAS – WTP £198 (Aug 2015) CW £416 from WT (Apr 2017)
  • LAX - WTP £195 (Aug 2017), WTP £269 (June 2018)CW £540 (Feb 2015)
  • MEX - WTP £235 (Jan 2017),CW £468 (Jan 2017). F £447 (Oct 2014)
  • MIA - WTP £160 (Aug 2017), CW £420 (Jan 2017)
  • OAK - CW £464 ex LGW (Feb 2018) and £508 (Oct 2018)
  • ORD - CW £473 (Nov 2015)
  • PHL - CW $551/$379 (Apr/May 2017), CW £525 (Feb 2016) F £575 (Feb 2017) CW £330 (Oct 2018)
  • PHX- CW $1,080 (May 2017)
  • SFO – WTP $310 (Nov 2015), CW $552 (offered Aug, for Dec 2017)
  • SFO - CW $799 (offered Sep 2018 for Oct 2018)
  • SJC - CW $900 (Mar 2017)
  • YUL – CW £549 (Mar 2017)
  • YVR - WTP £209 (Jun 2017), CW £595 (Jan 2017), CW £441 (Aug 2018)
  • YYZ - WTP £168 (Aug 2016), CW £549/449 (May 2017)
  • SEA - WTP $288 (Mar 2018)

Long haul routes from LON to South America and the Caribbean

(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • BGI -WTP £180 (Oct 2016)

Long haul routes from LON to Asia
(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • BKK - WTP £229 / £240 (Aug 2016), CW £549 (Aug 2016)
  • BOM – WTP £249 (May 2018)
  • BLR – CW £350 (Sep 2017)
  • DEL – WTP £189 (Jan 2017), CW £352 (May 2018)
  • HKG - WTP £165/270 (Mar 2017), CW £486 (Jan, Apr 2017), CW £629 (Seo 2017), CW £820 (June 2018)
  • ICN - WTP £152 (Sep 2016)
  • KUL - F £649 (Feb 2016)
  • NRT - WTP £207 (Apr 2015)
  • PEK - WTP £165 (Apr 2016)
  • PVG – WTP £200 (Mar 2017), CW £460 (Mar 2017)
  • SIN - to LHR - CW £495 (Apr 2017)

Long haul routes from LON to Australia and Oceania
(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • LHR-SYD – WTP £159 (Apr 2015)

Long haul routes from LON to Africa and Middle East
(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • AUH – WTP £105 (Feb 2017) CW £425 (Jan 2017)
  • CAI - WTP £109/155 (May 2017) CW £399 (from WT, Jan 2017)
  • CPT – WTP £92 (Apr 2016)
  • DXB – WTP £119/153 (Jul 2017) CW £425 (Feb 2017) WTP £127 (Aug 2017)
  • JNB - WTP £229 (Feb 2016), CW £540 (Jan 2017), CW £510 (Feb 2017)
  • KWI – WTP £100 (to LHR, Aug2017)
  • MCT - CW £450 (March 2017), CW £522 (Sept 2017)
  • RAK - CE £99 (Dec 2015)
  • TLV - WTP £118 (May 2017) WTP £150 (April 2018)
  • TLV - CW £120 (Sept 2015)


Long haul routes to LON
(price shown from lower cabin to mentioned cabin, e.g. WTP means price to POUG from WT to WTP):
  • AUH – WTP £129 (May 2017); CW £425 (May 2017) WT - WTP £161 (Dec 2018), WTP - CW £161 (Dec 2018
  • BGI - WTP £199 (Oct 2016)
  • BKK - CW £399 (Jul 2017)
  • BOS - WTP $189 (Apr 2015), CW $680 (Mar 2016), F $850 then $763 (Nov 2015)
  • BOM - CW £499 (July 2016), CW to F INR 46,665, approx. GBP 530 (29-Jun-18 for 30-Jun-18 1.45am departure)
  • DEL - WTP £209 (Jan 2017)
  • DEN- CW £473 (May 2017
  • DFW - WTP £255 (May 2017) CW $680 (to LHR, Mar 2017)
  • DME - WTP £145 (Apr 2016)
  • DXB – WTP £109 (Jun 2017), CW £350/425 (Mar 2017) WTP £150 (Aug 2017)
  • EWR - CW £473 (Sep 2016) see also JFK
  • GIG – CW £399 (Aug 2016), F £447 (Jan 2015)
  • HKG – WTP £161 (Jan 2015)/ HK$2700 (Mar 2017)
  • HKG - CW £599 (Mar 2015 for travel in April, also offered for May 2016), CW £540 (Jan 2017) CW £697 (May 2018)
  • IAD - CW $780 (Jul 2017) CW £540/485 (Feb/Mar 2017)
  • IAH - WTP £209 (June 2017), CW $850 (June 2017)
  • JFK – WTP £157/£270 (Jan/Apr 2017), WTP $279 (Mar 2017), CW £296/315 (Aug 2017) F £525 (May 2017), F $999 (Jan 2016) see also EWR, CW £501 (Dec 18)
  • JNB - CW £599 (Feb 2017)
  • KWI - WTP £226 (Oct 2018)
  • LAX - WTP £184, CW £599 (Apr 2016)
  • MCT - CW £450 (Mar 2017)
  • MCO - WTP £170 (Mar 2016) WTP £160 (Sept 2017)
  • MEX - CW £447 (Apr 2016)
  • MSY - CW £549 (Apr 2017)
  • MIA - WTP £176 (Nov 2015, CW £420 (Jan 2017)
  • NBO - CW £518 (Jan 2018)
  • OAK - CW £480 (Feb 2018) and £508 (Oct 2018)
  • ORD - WTP £189 (Feb 2016), CW £473 (Nov 2015) increased to £525 in 4 hours.
  • PEK - WTP £198 (Apr 2016), CW £549 (Aug 2015)
  • PHL- CW $579 (Apr 2017)
  • PHX - CW $765 (Feb 2017)
  • SCL - CW £425 (Apr 2017)
  • SEA - WTP £207 (Feb 2016)
  • SFO – WTP $310 (Nov 2015), $950/970 (Jan 2017), CW £477 (Nov 2017)
  • SFO - F $950, then $855, then back to $950 two days before dep (Feb 2017)
  • SFO - CW: $631 (Feb 2018 flight)
  • SFO - WTP to CW $738 (6/22/18 flight)
  • SIN – WTP £198 (Feb 2017), CW £495 (Jun 2017) WTP - £198 (Jan 2017)
  • SJC - CW £809 (Feb 2017) CW $1,046 (Jun 2017)
  • TLV - WTP £127-136 Jan 2017) $240 (Jun 2016)
  • YUL - WTP £180 (Jun 2016) CW £449 (Mar 2017)
  • YYC - WTP £189 (Aug 2016)
  • YYZ - WTP £189 (July 2016), CW C$723 (Nov 2015), F £499 (Mar 2017)
  • YVR - WTP £209 (Jun 2017)/C$459 (Aug 2017), CW £425 (Mar 2017), F C$900 (Mar 2016)
  • SEA - WTP $319 (Mar 2018)

POUG terms and conditions can be found by clicking here.
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Old Aug 19, 18, 3:32 am
  #796  
Hilton Contributor BadgeMarriott Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perth/London
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, Spire Elite Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, Marriot Plat, Mucci des Salons Ouvrants
Posts: 1,987
Heathrow - Bucharest £129 - offered 4 days before flight.

aks120
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Old Aug 19, 18, 2:52 pm
  #797  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Gold; IHG Gold Ambassador
Posts: 197
I was also offered £59 for LHR - NCL, Friday August 17th. >£500 came up for the return today...
Horatio is offline  
Old Aug 19, 18, 3:17 pm
  #798  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Programs: BA Executive Club
Posts: 48
Wed, 29th Aug LHR-LAX WT - WTP £269. Would have been cheaper booking WTP from the get go! Hoping this means they'll need to upgrade some pax at the airport, but then again, on SeatAlerts, WT is wide open.

Also, did have WTP to CW LAX - LHR for 14th Oct for £769 I think, but its dissapeared.
greenmeadie is offline  
Old Aug 19, 18, 3:45 pm
  #799  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Programs: BAEC Bronze
Posts: 235
Cologne (CGN) to Gatwick €89 from a Basic fare.

Suspecting Club on this route won’t include lounge access or other ground benefits, but hard to know as route hasn’t started yet.

Also have a ARN-LHR - still £129.

Added to/updated wiki.
lcylocal is offline  
Old Aug 19, 18, 4:09 pm
  #800  
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Originally Posted by KARFA View Post


I am not sure there is any limit - apart from you won't be offered one any earlier than 48 hours after making the booking. I have been offered POUGs months before the flight date.
Thanks, Karfa. Is "months" one or two, or five or six... or 10 or 11?

rb211.
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Old Aug 19, 18, 4:14 pm
  #801  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BAEC GGL/CR; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,104
I have POUG offers for flights at the end of May next year
bisonrav is offline  
Old Aug 19, 18, 4:22 pm
  #802  
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Originally Posted by RB211 View Post
Thanks, Karfa. Is "months" one or two, or five or six... or 10 or 11?

rb211.
>6 months
KARFA is offline  
Old Aug 19, 18, 5:08 pm
  #803  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SFO / LHR / Honorι, Saint Marie
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Posts: 1,370
Originally Posted by bisonrav View Post
I have POUG offers for flights at the end of May next year
Wow - thank you!

rb211.
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Old Aug 19, 18, 5:08 pm
  #804  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Posts: 1,370
Originally Posted by KARFA View Post
>6 months
Thank you.

rb211.
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Old Aug 19, 18, 10:20 pm
  #805  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Programs: BA Silver VS EI
Posts: 114
I gather I’m unlikely to be offered a POUG on a two sector ticket DUB LHR AMS?
Also can you be offered POUGs on cash + Avios fares?
ATCOlad is offline  
Old Aug 20, 18, 6:12 am
  #806  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London
Programs: BA - Gold
Posts: 87
Offered LHR > BRU £79 for 22/08/18 and BRU > LHR £79 for 27/08/18

Can someone please update wiki.

Thanks
spicysoup is offline  
Old Aug 20, 18, 6:31 am
  #807  
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Originally Posted by ATCOlad View Post
I gather I’m unlikely to be offered a POUG on a two sector ticket DUB LHR AMS?

Correct (sadly). I often have bookings with connections and I am never offered POUGs on them.

Also can you be offered POUGs on cash + Avios fares?
If you mean part pay with avios (so cash booking using avios to reduce cash) I didn't think that had any impact on whether you are offered a POUG(?)
KARFA is offline  
Old Aug 20, 18, 2:01 pm
  #808  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 81
Lhr-otp £129 3 days out as mentioned above.
Brainless69 is offline  
Old Aug 20, 18, 5:57 pm
  #809  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 35
POUG

LHR > IST ET to CE £129 Nov 18
IST > LHR ET to CE £129 Nov 18

MXP > LHR ET to CE €139 Nov 18
LHR > MXP ET to CE €159 Nov 18

GVA to LHR ET to CE £129 Aug 18


Nothing showing for outbound LHR > GVA which is this Sunday 26th Aug, hoping for airport upgrade!

Can someone update the wiki please I am not able to yet.

abersoch3254 is offline  
Old Aug 20, 18, 8:09 pm
  #810  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: glasgow, scotland
Programs: BA Executive Club Gold
Posts: 215
So this has really got me. First time in World Traveller for a very long time, LHR-PHX on Friday. Booked WT at short notice and was offered a few days later, and accepted, a WTP upgrade outbound for GBP297. Clicked through to the final payment and an error message came up saying ''it is not possible to change this booking online, please contact our office blah blah.'' Tried again, the offer was still displaying in red at this point but when I actually clicked through to the payment the final price was now GBP1680 (!!) for a one way upgrade to WTP. At this point, with the fear of a first time in traveller for a nearly 11 hour flight, I really wanted to take the upgrade. So I called BA and spoke to a lovely lady at EC who confirmed that the seats at that price had been taken, and that the only avaliable upgrade to plus was indeed GBP1680 one way and that was because only fully flex was now avaliable. She said there was a glitch on the website that still offered the promotion when it was no longer avaliable. It remained displayed for a further four hours and then vanished. 36 hours later - guess what - an upgrade to WTP appears again for GBP297 and I nearly took it as it actually seemed to work this time and took me through to the final payment at that price. However, now a bit grumpy with BA I decided to do a dummy booking and found out that WTP is filling up with only centre seats avaliable, where as I'm in 52H an aisle seat at the back of what looks like an almost empty WT cabin - so decided to take my chances at the back of WT which looks almost empty rather than paying for a seat in a jammed WTP cabin. But it has left me wondering is this an IT glitch or BA just trying to mess with me or what?
flyingscotsman is offline  

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