The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
#1726
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,736
Received notification today from CEDR.
Not unexpectedly, I lost at CEDR for flight cancellation due to MF cabin crew strike.
Reasons given are below. I don't agree with it, especially point 10 which is not true. I also don't understand points 9 and 12, why cancelling 4 days in advance is reasonable grounds for denying EC261 since there is no requirement for this point in the regs other than within 2 weeks. I believe CEDR has ignored most of my evidence and sided strongly with BA. I'm not surprised to be honest.
I hope this helps others.
Tim_T
Not unexpectedly, I lost at CEDR for flight cancellation due to MF cabin crew strike.
Reasons given are below. I don't agree with it, especially point 10 which is not true. I also don't understand points 9 and 12, why cancelling 4 days in advance is reasonable grounds for denying EC261 since there is no requirement for this point in the regs other than within 2 weeks. I believe CEDR has ignored most of my evidence and sided strongly with BA. I'm not surprised to be honest.
I hope this helps others.
Tim_T
The key problem with your case was that it was a Mixed Fleet route, as I understand it, so BA can say "our staff were on strike", and then the CEDR judgement looks reasonable. Some other cases relate to routes which are not Mixed Fleet operated, so I suspect that may be different since it would have been more obviously a commercial decision.
You do have the option of going to MCOL, but I wouldn't give it a high chance of success, particularly after the CEDR ruling which will doubtless be brought to the judge's attention and given a heavy weight. I suspect you still have an arguable case, but it would be based on narrowing down the focus to your flight - and no other - and the options open to BA to run that flight as scheduled - could they have done more to avoid the cancellation? But given the re-routing options provided, the fact that strikes are regarded as extraordinary circumstances, and the CEDR judgement, my personal view is that this would be a tough case.
#1727
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
Received notification today from CEDR.
Not unexpectedly, I lost at CEDR for flight cancellation due to MF cabin crew strike.
Reasons given are below. I don't agree with it, especially point 10 which is not true. I also don't understand points 9 and 12, why cancelling 4 days in advance is reasonable grounds for denying EC261 since there is no requirement for this point in the regs other than within 2 weeks. I believe CEDR has ignored most of my evidence and sided strongly with BA. I'm not surprised to be honest.
I hope this helps others.
Tim_T
7. In view of the above, I find that the airline was not directly in control of the industrial action by its Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew nor was the strike action inherent in the normal activity of the airline and qualifies as an extraordinary circumstance.
Decision
● The passenger’s claim does not succeed.
Not unexpectedly, I lost at CEDR for flight cancellation due to MF cabin crew strike.
Reasons given are below. I don't agree with it, especially point 10 which is not true. I also don't understand points 9 and 12, why cancelling 4 days in advance is reasonable grounds for denying EC261 since there is no requirement for this point in the regs other than within 2 weeks. I believe CEDR has ignored most of my evidence and sided strongly with BA. I'm not surprised to be honest.
I hope this helps others.
Tim_T
7. In view of the above, I find that the airline was not directly in control of the industrial action by its Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew nor was the strike action inherent in the normal activity of the airline and qualifies as an extraordinary circumstance.
Decision
● The passenger’s claim does not succeed.
I believe that the adjudicators decision is based on a number misunderstandings of the regulation. However, there is one very basic error at point 7 (above) on which alone, BA's defence should have been dismissed by the adjudicator.
The adjudicator says that strike action by BA staff is not 'inherent' in the operation of an airline. For 'airline' you could read company or business, any company or business.
In other words strike action by BA's own staff is an external, third party matter for which BA have no responsibility and it is completely outside of their control. In the real world is this realistic? Almost certainly not IMHO.
BA management were actively involved in negotiation with the union, they were actively making alternative arrangements to circumvent and lessen the effects of the problem. Every company, where staff go on strike, do their best to settle the matter, which by it's very nature, makes that action an inherent part of running any business. If it's an inherent part of running a business it cannot be an extraordinary circumstance and compensation should have been paid.
The adjudicator also made a number of other basic mistakes, for example at point 4.
4. I am mindful of the Civil Aviation Authority’s non-binding list of the types of incident that may qualify as extraordinary circumstances inclusive of industrial relations issues. Industrial relations issues are described as strikes that affect the operation of an air carrier. For example strikes by airport staff, ground handlers, or air traffic control. Given that the CAA is the National Enforcement Body (NEB) for Regulation 261, I find it is reasonable to attach weight to its opinions in this matter.
The adjudicator has become confused by the role of the CAA and the role of the European Court of Justice. It's is the ECJ who create the law and the CAA who are responsible for ensuring adherence of that law, on behalf of the British Government.
The none binding NEB list, which is referred to, was dismissed by the Court of Appeal in the Huzar v Jet2.com case who rightly said it carried no legal authority. The adjudicator should also have not attached any weight to this work of fiction.
I could go on, but there is really no point. MCOL is still available to you as is the NWNF route.
#1728
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 532
Thanks for posting the details...The key problem with your case was that it was a Mixed Fleet route, as I understand it, so BA can say "our staff were on strike", and then the CEDR judgement looks reasonable. Some other cases relate to routes which are not Mixed Fleet operated, so I suspect that may be different since it would have been more obviously a commercial decision.
#1729
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,736
#1730
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Netherlands
Programs: BA Gold; Flying Blue Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 481
Just want to ensure I'm understanding correctly. I'm on an AA ticketed, BA only metal AMS-LHR-ORD.
AMS-LHR is delayed due to technical reasons and I have now been put on the later LHR-ORD.
The later flight (297) is due to land 3.50 minutes after the 295 was due to land. 2 questions:
Am I due 50% of €400 or €600?
And do I claim from AA, the original ticketing airline or BA the carrier airline? It was BA who reticketed me on to the later flight if that makes any difference?
thanks
AMS-LHR is delayed due to technical reasons and I have now been put on the later LHR-ORD.
The later flight (297) is due to land 3.50 minutes after the 295 was due to land. 2 questions:
Am I due 50% of €400 or €600?
And do I claim from AA, the original ticketing airline or BA the carrier airline? It was BA who reticketed me on to the later flight if that makes any difference?
thanks
#1731
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
The later flight (297) is due to land 3.50 minutes after the 295 was due to land. 2 questions:
Am I due 50% of €400 or €600?
And do I claim from AA, the original ticketing airline or BA the carrier airline? It was BA who reticketed me on to the later flight if that makes any difference?
Am I due 50% of €400 or €600?
And do I claim from AA, the original ticketing airline or BA the carrier airline? It was BA who reticketed me on to the later flight if that makes any difference?
And it's the operating airline that will be responsible for this.
#1732
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Netherlands
Programs: BA Gold; Flying Blue Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 481
From the number of people left waiting, looks like a number of hand luggage only passengers have been put onto later flights.
I just wasnt sure if the base amount for >3500 was €400 or €600 as couldn't work out from the 1st page, but that's probably because I've been awake since 4.45am for the originally schedule 7.35am flight....
#1733
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
You are ticketed AMS-ORD with a connection at LHR. The only thing that matters is the delay at your final ticketed destination, e.g. ORD and the operating carrier of the flight which causes your delay, e.g. BA.
If your arrival at ORD is 3+ hours, you will be due EUR 300 and if 4+ hours, EUR 600. No way of knowing anything and not worth even thinking about until after your arrival at ORD.
If your arrival at ORD is 3+ hours, you will be due EUR 300 and if 4+ hours, EUR 600. No way of knowing anything and not worth even thinking about until after your arrival at ORD.
#1734
Join Date: Aug 2017
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 3
Dear All,
Just checking if I am insane and what my next step should be. Please let me know what you guys think.
On November 2nd I went with my best friend to Abu Dhabi (Fairmont hotel = great!) to do nothing (drinking).
Routing
Outbound: AMS-LHR-AUH on Nov. 2nd.
Inbound: AUH-LHR-AMS Nov. 6st at 2.05 am.
The AUH-LHR flight was cancelled and rerouted from DXB.
On Friday November 3rd at 3.45 pm I received an email our flight (BA0072) was cancelled. We were put on the 2 pm flight from DXB, also on November 6th.
I Called BA: reason of cancellation was unknown. Only other option was same 2 am flight on November 5th or same flight on November 8th.
Arrived more then 12 hours later in AMS on November 6th.
A week later I filed an expenses claim and a separate EC/261 claim.
Expenses claim was awarded but EC/261 was not. BA is not taking responsibility because of technical failure.
Within 10 days after I filed for both (separately) I received he following reply:
"Dear Sir Rambo,
Thanks for your recent emails about your flight from Abu Dhabi on 06 November in Club World. I know how stressful it can be when your flight’s cancelled, mainly because you have to change all your plans. You certainly don’t expect this to happen when you fly with us and I’m sorry we let you and Mr Chuck Norris down.
I’m afraid however, your compensation claim’s been refused because BA0072 on 06 November 2017 was cancelled because of technical reasons, which wasn’t caused by British Airways and prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, I’m afraid we’re not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
To explain further, there’s currently an issue with the Rolls Royce engines on all B787 aircraft. British Airways and all other airlines operating these aircraft are therefore under instruction from Boeing to remove these aircraft from service for further inspection. I’m afraid this was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule.
We take all reasonable measures to avoid cancelling a flight and we always consider if there are any operational options available before we make a decision. We’re very sorry the cancellation was necessary in this case.
Of course, we’ll fully cover your hotel, food and transport expenses you had as a result. I’ve therefore arranged a refund of €1,2 Million to your bank account and this will be with you shortly.
Thanks again for getting in touch with us so we could explain the background. We value your loyalty as a Gold member of our Executive Club and I hope you enjoy your flight with us in February. Please feel free to contact me directly using the blue link below if I can help you with anything else.
Best regards
Pamela Anderson”
Am I wrong to say these technical reasons are not “extraordinary circumstances”?
And/or is this technical issue sincere and is it a serious reason that BA would not be liable for the compensation?
BTW. Common sense tells me BA had more then enough time to find another aircraft.
Looking forward to what you guys think and/or advice what my next step should be or that I just let it be...
Thanks a lot!
M.
Just checking if I am insane and what my next step should be. Please let me know what you guys think.
On November 2nd I went with my best friend to Abu Dhabi (Fairmont hotel = great!) to do nothing (drinking).
Routing
Outbound: AMS-LHR-AUH on Nov. 2nd.
Inbound: AUH-LHR-AMS Nov. 6st at 2.05 am.
The AUH-LHR flight was cancelled and rerouted from DXB.
On Friday November 3rd at 3.45 pm I received an email our flight (BA0072) was cancelled. We were put on the 2 pm flight from DXB, also on November 6th.
I Called BA: reason of cancellation was unknown. Only other option was same 2 am flight on November 5th or same flight on November 8th.
Arrived more then 12 hours later in AMS on November 6th.
A week later I filed an expenses claim and a separate EC/261 claim.
Expenses claim was awarded but EC/261 was not. BA is not taking responsibility because of technical failure.
Within 10 days after I filed for both (separately) I received he following reply:
"Dear Sir Rambo,
Thanks for your recent emails about your flight from Abu Dhabi on 06 November in Club World. I know how stressful it can be when your flight’s cancelled, mainly because you have to change all your plans. You certainly don’t expect this to happen when you fly with us and I’m sorry we let you and Mr Chuck Norris down.
I’m afraid however, your compensation claim’s been refused because BA0072 on 06 November 2017 was cancelled because of technical reasons, which wasn’t caused by British Airways and prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, I’m afraid we’re not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
To explain further, there’s currently an issue with the Rolls Royce engines on all B787 aircraft. British Airways and all other airlines operating these aircraft are therefore under instruction from Boeing to remove these aircraft from service for further inspection. I’m afraid this was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule.
We take all reasonable measures to avoid cancelling a flight and we always consider if there are any operational options available before we make a decision. We’re very sorry the cancellation was necessary in this case.
Of course, we’ll fully cover your hotel, food and transport expenses you had as a result. I’ve therefore arranged a refund of €1,2 Million to your bank account and this will be with you shortly.
Thanks again for getting in touch with us so we could explain the background. We value your loyalty as a Gold member of our Executive Club and I hope you enjoy your flight with us in February. Please feel free to contact me directly using the blue link below if I can help you with anything else.
Best regards
Pamela Anderson”
Am I wrong to say these technical reasons are not “extraordinary circumstances”?
And/or is this technical issue sincere and is it a serious reason that BA would not be liable for the compensation?
BTW. Common sense tells me BA had more then enough time to find another aircraft.
Looking forward to what you guys think and/or advice what my next step should be or that I just let it be...
Thanks a lot!
M.
#1735
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Am I wrong to say these technical reasons are not “extraordinary circumstances”?
And/or is this technical issue sincere and is it a serious reason that BA would not be liable for the compensation?
BTW. Common sense tells me BA had more then enough time to find another aircraft.
And/or is this technical issue sincere and is it a serious reason that BA would not be liable for the compensation?
BTW. Common sense tells me BA had more then enough time to find another aircraft.
BA292 IAD-LHR Thu 04 Jan Cancelled
BA LHR-DOH-LHR daily cancellation since 13/11?
Atlanta from 789 to 777 change?
This feels different from the usual run-of-the-mill technical problem, and I think there's been some case law on this. The problem with "common sense" is that it doesn't tell you where the extra aircraft are going to come from if the entire fleet is short by a couple of aircraft for a prolonged period. Of course, the airline could always steal an aircraft from some other flight and cancel that one instead, but there's no particular reason why your flight was more important than the other one.
#1736
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 935
Not sure on your specific question as manufacturing defaults are valid reasons not to pay compensation but BA would have to show that this was the actual reason. However the above caught my eye as I don't think I would take this further if I was receiving that amount of refund!
#1737
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Mucci, BA, AF
Posts: 10,125
This is one of the few cases where technical issues can indeed result in no EC261 compensation.
#1738
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,736
Now I can see another line of argument - which I am not convinced would work - where it could be argued that this is a grounding of only part of the fleet, and therefore the airline could be challenged whether "all reasonable measures" had be taken: they could have shuffled their fleet around better, leased some aircraft, made arrangements with other airlines and so on. With good legal advice and a sympathetic judge this may get somewhere, otherwise it's clutching at straws. I put that down to give the other side of the equation.
I trust you greatly enjoyed your final night in AUH, with that level of spending I would have thought the trifling matter of a few extra hours of such lavish relaxation would not be a huge concern.
#1739
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
Hi MLE1,
Normally when this type of manufacturing fault occurs it requires the immediate grounding of all affected aircraft on safety grounds, such as the battery problem on, as it so happens, the B787. When this happens it is clearly outside of the airlines responsibility and the airline is exempted from it's obligation to pay compensation.
On the date your flight was delayed, and at roughly the time you were due to fly, there were over 100 B787 in the air, including other BA B787’s. This could be because not every B787 is affected by the claimed fault or it could be because safety check or repairs have to be carried out in a short, but managed, time scale. In which case it will be BA’s responsibility to manage that process. How BA choose to manage that situation is up to them, however, as this is now inherent within BA’s operations they are responsible for EC261 compensation IMHO.
Normally when this type of manufacturing fault occurs it requires the immediate grounding of all affected aircraft on safety grounds, such as the battery problem on, as it so happens, the B787. When this happens it is clearly outside of the airlines responsibility and the airline is exempted from it's obligation to pay compensation.
On the date your flight was delayed, and at roughly the time you were due to fly, there were over 100 B787 in the air, including other BA B787’s. This could be because not every B787 is affected by the claimed fault or it could be because safety check or repairs have to be carried out in a short, but managed, time scale. In which case it will be BA’s responsibility to manage that process. How BA choose to manage that situation is up to them, however, as this is now inherent within BA’s operations they are responsible for EC261 compensation IMHO.
#1740
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
On the date your flight was delayed, and at roughly the time you were due to fly, there were over 100 B787 in the air, including other BA B787’s. This could be because not every B787 is affected by the claimed fault or it could be because safety check or repairs have to be carried out in a short, but managed, time scale.