The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Oct 1, 2017, 3:59 am
#1486
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An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
Oct 1, 2017, 6:40 am
#1487
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
I’ve had my CEDR response from BA over the MF strike and am currently preparing my rebuttal, would be good to discuss with others who are going through the same thing.
Their defence obviously wasn’t filed by a member of their legal team as it’s pretty poor.
Edit: Forgot to say, their defence genuinely revolves around a Daily Telegraph article saying that people wouldn’t be eligible for compensation...!!!!!
Their defence obviously wasn’t filed by a member of their legal team as it’s pretty poor.
Edit: Forgot to say, their defence genuinely revolves around a Daily Telegraph article saying that people wouldn’t be eligible for compensation...!!!!!
Your first point of rebuttal should be that media reports carry no legal authority and are irrelevant to the argument.
You should argue that a strike by BA staff cannot be regarded as an extraordinary circumstance as the situation is inherently within the control of the airline. The following clip is just a copy and paste from a Mirror article, but shows what Bott & Co's opinion is. No doubt they will be acting for many claimants using this argument.
Coby Benson, flight delay solicitor at Bott & Co explains: "If a passenger’s flight is cancelled or delayed for more than 3 hours then they are entitled to between €250 and €600 compensation, unless the disruption was caused by extraordinary circumstances: beyond the airline’s control or events that are ‘not inherent’ in the day-to-day activity of an airline.
"In our opinion this is not extraordinary since the events are well within British Airways' control and the management of disgruntled staff is simply part and parcel of running any business, not least an airline."
You could also add the 'all reasonable measures' argument as a backup, just in case the control argument should fail, thus giving you two bites of the cherry.
Last edited by Tyzap; Oct 1, 2017 at 8:09 am Reason: clarity.
Oct 1, 2017, 6:46 am
#1488
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That’s not correct, the BBC are right, as per https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/f...ts+Sept+29.pdf:
1. First, move the customer to the next available Ryanair flight on the same route. If this option is not available same or next day, then;
2. Move the customer to the next available Ryanair flight from/to a suitable alternative airport/s (for example: Luton or Gatwick in the case of Stansted). If this option is not available same or next day, then;
3. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any one of our agreed disruption partner airlines to their destination as follows; Easyjet, Jet2, Vueling, Cityjet, Aer Lingus, Norwegian or Eurowings airlines. If this option is not available same or next day, then;
4. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any comparable alternative transport (another airline flight, train, bus or car hire) with the cost of this comparable transport ticket to be assessed on a case by case basis.
2. Move the customer to the next available Ryanair flight from/to a suitable alternative airport/s (for example: Luton or Gatwick in the case of Stansted). If this option is not available same or next day, then;
3. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any one of our agreed disruption partner airlines to their destination as follows; Easyjet, Jet2, Vueling, Cityjet, Aer Lingus, Norwegian or Eurowings airlines. If this option is not available same or next day, then;
4. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any comparable alternative transport (another airline flight, train, bus or car hire) with the cost of this comparable transport ticket to be assessed on a case by case basis.
Thanks for that quote, which is interesting for future reference. It's clearly an attempt to limit their financial exposure, but it also seems to me that they are mirroring BA's approach with this idea of "partner airlines" (I bet easyJet were surprised to read that!), like the JBA and oneworld relationships. Perhaps this is fair enough as a policy document, but it won't save FR from a strict reading of EC261 which make no such distinctions, it is fully biased in favour of the passengers and with no bias anywhere on keeping costs down for airlines.
Clearly an attempt to limit exposure on the part of FR but I am not sure how far they’d get if challenged on it. After all, a flight on BA in 4 hours is more likely to be in the customers best interest than a flight tomorrow on FR. Would be interesting to see whether the ‘same day or next’ limits would hold water in the event that they were challenged by a passenger who was offered rebooking on a flight tomorrow on FR but refused rebooking onto BA today.
So it is possible that the CAA is also signalling that it is content for all airlines to adopt a layered approach of this kind. Might BA possibly be drawing some comfort as well as feeling some discomfort from what has happened here?
Oct 1, 2017, 12:09 pm
#1489
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My flight was a MF operated flight cancelled due to industrial action.
As a simple engineer that relies on logic and the laws of physics, I've based my argument on EC261 article 5 which states "An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." (my bold)
Now I've watched enough episodes of Ally McBeal to know that reasoned argument often do not works in the world of legal matters. So far its not worked on BA so I wait to see if it will work with CEDR - Mattt1's response would suggest it does not work on CEDR either. I wait with bated breath.
BTW, do I get anything on FT for hitting 20 years in the BA forum? Only a few months to go!
As a simple engineer that relies on logic and the laws of physics, I've based my argument on EC261 article 5 which states "An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." (my bold)
Now I've watched enough episodes of Ally McBeal to know that reasoned argument often do not works in the world of legal matters. So far its not worked on BA so I wait to see if it will work with CEDR - Mattt1's response would suggest it does not work on CEDR either. I wait with bated breath.
BTW, do I get anything on FT for hitting 20 years in the BA forum? Only a few months to go!
Oct 1, 2017, 2:31 pm
#1490
Join Date: Dec 2016
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I am traveling with another person in Italy and our flight (BA605, PSA-LHR) departing tomorrow was cancelled with short (1 day) notice. It would be great if some of you can offer to confirm, or disagree on whether my thoughts toward the case that I am facing right now is correct:
Myself: My final destination is LHR and after a lengthy phone call, I have managed to rebook on the same flight departing one day later, on Tuesday. This makes it effectively a 24 hour delay. I am entitled to claim E250 based on the fact that it is a Category 1 flight and has delayed for more than 4 hours.
My partner: She is on a separate PNR and she also had her ticket rebooked on the same flight. Her return flight is in fact PSA-LHR-HKG (all on BA) with 4 hours of stopover. She is entitled to claim E600 as it is a Category 3 flight.
We are both EU citizens but she does not reside in the EU, would this be a problem?
In addition to above, we will also be able to claim expense covering food, hotel and transport to and from the hotel. (I have booked a stay in an ok-ish 3* hotel and have kept some screenshots to show that the price was reasonable)
While rebooking, We have tried to asked the agent the cause of the cancellation but she was not able to find an answer. Am I correct that this would be the only excuse that they may be able to use to stop us from making a claim under EC261? (As they may claim afterwards that the flight was cancelled under extraordinary circumstances)
Finally, although flying two days later, we will also go to PSA tomorrow to return our rented car and will have a chance to visit the counter at the airport. Is there anything that I should beware of, or ask?
Thank you!
Myself: My final destination is LHR and after a lengthy phone call, I have managed to rebook on the same flight departing one day later, on Tuesday. This makes it effectively a 24 hour delay. I am entitled to claim E250 based on the fact that it is a Category 1 flight and has delayed for more than 4 hours.
My partner: She is on a separate PNR and she also had her ticket rebooked on the same flight. Her return flight is in fact PSA-LHR-HKG (all on BA) with 4 hours of stopover. She is entitled to claim E600 as it is a Category 3 flight.
We are both EU citizens but she does not reside in the EU, would this be a problem?
In addition to above, we will also be able to claim expense covering food, hotel and transport to and from the hotel. (I have booked a stay in an ok-ish 3* hotel and have kept some screenshots to show that the price was reasonable)
While rebooking, We have tried to asked the agent the cause of the cancellation but she was not able to find an answer. Am I correct that this would be the only excuse that they may be able to use to stop us from making a claim under EC261? (As they may claim afterwards that the flight was cancelled under extraordinary circumstances)
Finally, although flying two days later, we will also go to PSA tomorrow to return our rented car and will have a chance to visit the counter at the airport. Is there anything that I should beware of, or ask?
Thank you!
Last edited by TheRiverCard; Oct 1, 2017 at 2:40 pm
Oct 1, 2017, 2:55 pm
#1491
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While rebooking, We have tried to asked the agent the cause of the cancellation but she was not able to find an answer. Am I correct that this would be the only part that may hinder us from making a claim under EC261? (As they may claim afterwards that the flight was cancelled under extraordinary circumstances)
Code:
DOBA605/02OCT * OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 605 1 MO 02OCT17 CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL) FLIGHT CANCELLED 0833 INDU *1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 605 1 MO 02OCT17 APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL PSA 1235 MO JCDRI/M YB/G 320 2:25 HKMLVNQOSG/G LHR 1400 MO 2:25 COMMENTS- 1.PSA LHR - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD 2.PSA LHR - ARRIVES TERMINAL 5 3.PSA LHR - 9/ NON-SMOKING 4.PSA LHR - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE 5.PSA LHR - CO2/PAX* 119.15 KG ECO, 119.15 KG PRE (*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR CONFIGURATION- 320 C 12 M 150
http://www.easyjet.com/en/help/prepa...?link_megadrop
Originally Posted by easyJet
We have been informed of a Ground Handling Strike in Italy on Monday 2nd October.
We are working to minimise the impact of this strike, but like other airlines flying to and from Italy, there will be cancellations and potential delays.
Although this situation is outside our control, we do understand that it can be a very frustrating situation for all customers travelling.
We are working to minimise the impact of this strike, but like other airlines flying to and from Italy, there will be cancellations and potential delays.
Although this situation is outside our control, we do understand that it can be a very frustrating situation for all customers travelling.
That doesn't affect your right to care expenses. Your hotel seems OK if under Ł200, so I am sure it's well below that.
By all means check with the desk at PSA airport in case other things are possible, but I would usually advise not ringing BA if you were in your current situation since the airport staff (if they are not striking!) are able to rebook you on to alternative airlines (if they are operating!), however strictly speaking you are only allowed involuntary rebooking per event, and you seem to have had yours now.
But you are otherwise doing all the right things in terms of getting evidence and asking the right questions.
Oct 1, 2017, 3:22 pm
#1492
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BA Silver
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It's a pleasure to meet you, c-w-s and thank you so much for your quick response! While I'm certainly keen to leave Italy, I'm in no hurry in leaving the sub. Being a long time lurker, I was just waiting to find a perfect opportunity like this to make my first post here!
A quick search on google does suggest that we are in a bad shape for compensation and the hotel is indeed quite a bit cheaper than Ł200. Perhaps what happened to the poor chap who was forced to find a hotel on the same night in London earlier (Last month?) has made me to be a bit more conservative.
I really appreciate your help!
A quick search on google does suggest that we are in a bad shape for compensation and the hotel is indeed quite a bit cheaper than Ł200. Perhaps what happened to the poor chap who was forced to find a hotel on the same night in London earlier (Last month?) has made me to be a bit more conservative.
I really appreciate your help!
Oct 1, 2017, 5:00 pm
#1493
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The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Oct 2, 2017, 2:51 am
#1494
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Good industrial relations should never get to the point where a set of workers feel the need to walk out and good management shouldn't allow their customers become caught up in strike actions.
If it's not within the companies control to sort out their industrial relations then who's responsibility is it?
CEDR will use a single adjudicator to assess a claim along these lines. Any decision by that adjudicator will be their personal decision, so it could go either way. No precedent will be set. The only way to get a definitive answer to this would be for someone to run a test case through the courts.
Oct 2, 2017, 2:52 am
#1495
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 935
The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.
CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
The commercial reasonableness for the airline is not a hurdle that someone claiming their right to compensation has to address.
Oct 2, 2017, 2:59 am
#1496
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It would be interesting to see BA putting this forward as an argument as if they are found liable for compensation then the economic argument changes significantly. It may be hard to argue that extended periods of IA are sufficient to allow an airline to claim extraordinary circumstances when there are remedies available (e.g. QR leases).
The commercial reasonableness for the airline is not a hurdle that someone claiming their right to compensation has to address.
The commercial reasonableness for the airline is not a hurdle that someone claiming their right to compensation has to address.
Oct 2, 2017, 8:06 am
#1497
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 29
CEDR Case Results - BA215 Cancelation on July 8 2107
I just wanted to report back to the thread about the result of our CEDR case. BA has responded with the following:
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
So it seems that BA admits responsibility for flight cancelation compensation under the Chapter 7 of EU261 when the route is not being operated by the Mixed Fleet crew. Thanks for your help, c_w_s!
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
So it seems that BA admits responsibility for flight cancelation compensation under the Chapter 7 of EU261 when the route is not being operated by the Mixed Fleet crew. Thanks for your help, c_w_s!
Oct 2, 2017, 8:11 am
#1498
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That's great news @max_bos, was this a flight cancelled because of the strike?
Oct 2, 2017, 8:19 am
#1499
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 29
BA was inconsistent in their initial response about the reason: they said it was "operational" when I asked for the explanation for my travel insurance, but then blamed it on the strike in their denial for our EC261 claim. The LHR-BOS route is never operated by the Mixed Fleet crew, so it would be a knock-off effect if it were strike-related.
Oct 2, 2017, 9:14 am
#1500
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I just wanted to report back to the thread about the result of our CEDR case. BA has responded with the following:
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28718045-post1257.html
Did you recover all the hotel expenses in the end? I think there was a shortfall there.