The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Jan 10, 2017, 11:36 pm
#61
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Question on a cancellation + rerouting situation:
- Passenger (mother-in-law) booked on OTP-LHR-SJC on 11JAN, planned to arrive 16:45 in SJC.
- LHR-SJC flight on 11JAN cancelled from 06JAN per call center agent, no information sent out
- passenger automatically moved to OTP-LHR-SFO, planned to arrive 18:20 in SFO.
- I only discovered this when I could not check-in for the longhaul flight and noticed it was actually a different flight (SFO-bound vs SJC).
- call-center agent advised I can accept the change or be moved to 12JAN on original routing, free of charge. I did not accept or rejected that situation, I advised I will call-back with decision.
Questions:
- if the flight arrives in SFO before 19:45 (3 hours after scheduled arrival time in SJC), is the passenger entitled to EU/261 600EUR compensation? Flight could not have been cancelled for weather reasons 5 days earlier.
- if passenger is not entitled to compensation above, is she entitled to claim cost of transportation from SFO to SJC? It's 35 miles between them, in bad traffic. SJC is right next to my office, I will not have to drive extra and spend at least 3 more hours to get her home.
Many thanks.
- Passenger (mother-in-law) booked on OTP-LHR-SJC on 11JAN, planned to arrive 16:45 in SJC.
- LHR-SJC flight on 11JAN cancelled from 06JAN per call center agent, no information sent out
- passenger automatically moved to OTP-LHR-SFO, planned to arrive 18:20 in SFO.
- I only discovered this when I could not check-in for the longhaul flight and noticed it was actually a different flight (SFO-bound vs SJC).
- call-center agent advised I can accept the change or be moved to 12JAN on original routing, free of charge. I did not accept or rejected that situation, I advised I will call-back with decision.
Questions:
- if the flight arrives in SFO before 19:45 (3 hours after scheduled arrival time in SJC), is the passenger entitled to EU/261 600EUR compensation? Flight could not have been cancelled for weather reasons 5 days earlier.
- if passenger is not entitled to compensation above, is she entitled to claim cost of transportation from SFO to SJC? It's 35 miles between them, in bad traffic. SJC is right next to my office, I will not have to drive extra and spend at least 3 more hours to get her home.
Many thanks.
Jan 11, 2017, 3:34 am
#62
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From my understanding there are some things:
1. No compensation because it is strike related, especially not from BA.
2. AFAIK SJC is not part of the SFO area (whereas OAK is, I think), so compensation for transportation also unlikely, yet I would take it up with them or your credit card. This is bc the regulation talks primarily about airports that serve the same city, like JFK,LGA,EWR.
3. My preferred option would be to demand a flight into LAX/PHX/DFW on either AA or BA with a connection to SJC (or any other airport for that matter). And if they reject, demand compensation for SFO-SJC.
Cheers
PS: The compensation can in general be difficult bc they will definitely claim force majeur, however, they still have to OFFER everything else that is in that regulation, especially rerouting under EQUIVALENT conditions. And they cannot FORCE anything on you, it remains with the passenger to decide what they want. One might also find a 744 and 788 not equivalent, though...
PPS: Also, BA is pretty *good* (i.e. bad) at informing passengers or others about their rights and about BA's responsibilities according to EC 261/2004. I realized that it is now (too) late for a meaningful action on behalf of your mother in law, but if you incur non-negligible damages because of BA's action, take it up with them. Non-negligible is about 50€ (that is about the money that is considered "minimum" damage for proceedings in Germany). Then, since OTP is in Bukarest, Romania, take it up with BA either through the Romanian regulatory bodies or any European body. I think that it should be possible for you to e.g. file with the Federal Office of Justice in Germany if you were fluent enough in German (https://www.bundesjustizamt.de/DE/Th...elle_node.html).
Because while they are not due to pay compensation according to the regulation, they failed at informing the passenger at all (virtually) and acted without any consent. There are no fines set out benefiting the customer in that relation, but I feel that an airline also has to be held accountable for not acting according to the regulation even if no compensation is involved.
1. No compensation because it is strike related, especially not from BA.
2. AFAIK SJC is not part of the SFO area (whereas OAK is, I think), so compensation for transportation also unlikely, yet I would take it up with them or your credit card. This is bc the regulation talks primarily about airports that serve the same city, like JFK,LGA,EWR.
3. My preferred option would be to demand a flight into LAX/PHX/DFW on either AA or BA with a connection to SJC (or any other airport for that matter). And if they reject, demand compensation for SFO-SJC.
Cheers
PS: The compensation can in general be difficult bc they will definitely claim force majeur, however, they still have to OFFER everything else that is in that regulation, especially rerouting under EQUIVALENT conditions. And they cannot FORCE anything on you, it remains with the passenger to decide what they want. One might also find a 744 and 788 not equivalent, though...
PPS: Also, BA is pretty *good* (i.e. bad) at informing passengers or others about their rights and about BA's responsibilities according to EC 261/2004. I realized that it is now (too) late for a meaningful action on behalf of your mother in law, but if you incur non-negligible damages because of BA's action, take it up with them. Non-negligible is about 50€ (that is about the money that is considered "minimum" damage for proceedings in Germany). Then, since OTP is in Bukarest, Romania, take it up with BA either through the Romanian regulatory bodies or any European body. I think that it should be possible for you to e.g. file with the Federal Office of Justice in Germany if you were fluent enough in German (https://www.bundesjustizamt.de/DE/Th...elle_node.html).
Because while they are not due to pay compensation according to the regulation, they failed at informing the passenger at all (virtually) and acted without any consent. There are no fines set out benefiting the customer in that relation, but I feel that an airline also has to be held accountable for not acting according to the regulation even if no compensation is involved.
Last edited by cvision; Jan 11, 2017 at 7:56 am
Jan 11, 2017, 9:24 am
#63
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Thank you for the detailed response.
I did not know strike is categorized as force majeure, since to me there are clear ways they could have avoided it. Anyway, that's just my view and I'm not a specialist.
I'll reach out to them after the flight and see if they will at least provide compensation for local transportation costs, otherwise will let it go. It's disappointing more because I literally work next to SJC airport and the new flight adds more than 3 hours to the "time home after arrival", but I guess that is debatable and for others in my situation the shift to SFO might be more advantageous.
I did not know strike is categorized as force majeure, since to me there are clear ways they could have avoided it. Anyway, that's just my view and I'm not a specialist.
I'll reach out to them after the flight and see if they will at least provide compensation for local transportation costs, otherwise will let it go. It's disappointing more because I literally work next to SJC airport and the new flight adds more than 3 hours to the "time home after arrival", but I guess that is debatable and for others in my situation the shift to SFO might be more advantageous.
Jan 11, 2017, 10:26 am
#64
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Thank you for the detailed response.
I did not know strike is categorized as force majeure, since to me there are clear ways they could have avoided it. Anyway, that's just my view and I'm not a specialist.
I'll reach out to them after the flight and see if they will at least provide compensation for local transportation costs, otherwise will let it go. It's disappointing more because I literally work next to SJC airport and the new flight adds more than 3 hours to the "time home after arrival", but I guess that is debatable and for others in my situation the shift to SFO might be more advantageous.
I did not know strike is categorized as force majeure, since to me there are clear ways they could have avoided it. Anyway, that's just my view and I'm not a specialist.
I'll reach out to them after the flight and see if they will at least provide compensation for local transportation costs, otherwise will let it go. It's disappointing more because I literally work next to SJC airport and the new flight adds more than 3 hours to the "time home after arrival", but I guess that is debatable and for others in my situation the shift to SFO might be more advantageous.
strike (and force majure) only spare them giving compensation due to cancellation and great delays
BA still need to provide duty of care and rerouting
as long as it wasnt your suggestion to fly to an alternative airport, they have to pay to move you back to the original "area". Whether it is a nearby airport in the region or city, they still have to do it.
under duty of care, you still need to be reasonably fed... and hoteled if overnight.
Jan 11, 2017, 12:18 pm
#65
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They rerouted the passenger to best of their abilities. Delay here will only be ~2 hours between official landing times, same day of booked travel. No hotel or extra food required.
I thought that since total difference between planned arrival time in SJC (booked airport) and actual arrival time (arrival in SFO + transfer time to SJC) is higher than 3-4 hours, I could claim compensation for the cancellation and delay.
I thought that since total difference between planned arrival time in SJC (booked airport) and actual arrival time (arrival in SFO + transfer time to SJC) is higher than 3-4 hours, I could claim compensation for the cancellation and delay.
Jan 11, 2017, 8:09 pm
#66
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They rerouted the passenger to best of their abilities. Delay here will only be ~2 hours between official landing times, same day of booked travel. No hotel or extra food required.
I thought that since total difference between planned arrival time in SJC (booked airport) and actual arrival time (arrival in SFO + transfer time to SJC) is higher than 3-4 hours, I could claim compensation for the cancellation and delay.
I thought that since total difference between planned arrival time in SJC (booked airport) and actual arrival time (arrival in SFO + transfer time to SJC) is higher than 3-4 hours, I could claim compensation for the cancellation and delay.
and delay after "cab". I wonder if that can be paid for!
Jan 11, 2017, 9:18 pm
#67
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Flight landed 20 minutes late, 90 minutes later she came through immigration and baggage claim. In SJC this whole process takes 15-40 minutes for all passengers. I'll call BA tomorrow and see what they say and what I can get form them for the time and trouble.
Jan 12, 2017, 1:31 am
#68
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Get real!!! Neither EC261/2004 nor BA care how long it takes through immigration and baggage claim. They care about when the door opens for disembarkation... The rest is problem of your country's bureaucracy and efficiency...
Jan 12, 2017, 7:58 pm
#69
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eitherway you wouldnt have reached the 4 hour mark for delay compensation...
Jan 13, 2017, 6:15 am
#70
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During 2016 I had two flights cancelled, LHR - GLA, which on both occasions BA said was weather related and they had ben asked to reduce the number of flights owing to ATC restrictions.
As a result my claim for EU261 on the first of the two flights was rejected. I never bothered applying for the 2nd one.
I contacted an online legal, no win no fee company, provided them the same flight details as BA rejected the claim for and without any problem at all I have a cheque from them as BA agreed to pay.
I have, of course, lost the legal fees.
Disappointing that BA not pay me directly but were happy to pay when I got legal involved?
As a result my claim for EU261 on the first of the two flights was rejected. I never bothered applying for the 2nd one.
I contacted an online legal, no win no fee company, provided them the same flight details as BA rejected the claim for and without any problem at all I have a cheque from them as BA agreed to pay.
I have, of course, lost the legal fees.
Disappointing that BA not pay me directly but were happy to pay when I got legal involved?
Jan 13, 2017, 7:27 am
#71
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Well I think you will see from last year's thread that if you had pushed back yourself on the second round, BA usually pay up. I've been trying to track MCOL cases via the courts (which isn't easy) but very rarely do BA allow things to get to a hearing. So personally I wouldn't involve others, I'd just press the MCOL buttons, BA usually pay up either after Service, or occasionally just before the hearing.
Jan 13, 2017, 7:36 am
#72
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Some feedback re compensation and flights paid for with an Amex 241; I recently submitted a claim for compensation for a technical delay and BA has paid in full without a quibble. They responded to the claim within 2 days of submitting the claim so fairly impressive (and how it should be).
Jan 14, 2017, 7:18 pm
#73
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 159
Regarding my post in the old thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/27671830-post1392.html), I've had a reply from BA (via Twitter as they were not replying by email).
The reply is as follows
I've asked for proof of the notification sent to the TA as this is just over the 14 day period where they would be liable.
Also, the TA said they called Trade Support at BA where BA told them to tell me to call Customer Relations and that they would rebook me (this suggest it was BA who had control over the booking not the TA). The TA was adamant they could not change the booking and I received several follow up emails from them stating this and apologising that they could not do anything for me - as seen by the Twitter response, BA did have control over my booking.
The contact details on MMB were the email which I booked with (still can be contacted on) and as far as I can remember, my phone number which I kept up date. The booking was also linked to my exec account which had up date emails and contact numbers on.
I'm unsure where to really go next with this, I feel if I go down the MCOL route, BA will probably find a way out of it.
The reply is as follows
Hi Peter, I've looked at your case and I can see that your travel agent was notified of the changes to your flights on 1 December 2016 at 01:36:00. The notification asked them to verify the minimum connecting time and correct the itinerary or BA would cancel the affected flights. Ordinarily your travel agent is responsible for contact you regarding this. As no action was taken, your flights were cancelled by a robotic system on 4 December 2016 at 01:55:00. Your flights were subject to a schedule change resulting in insufficient connecting time to which your travel agent was notified of more than 14 days in advance of departure, as we did issue a notificiation I'm afraid compensation isn't payable in this case. You're right in that we had taken control of your booking on 17 August, when we reissued the ticket for your outbound journey. However, the primary contact details in the booking were that of your travel agent. We will always notify our passengers of involuntary changes to their bookings, but we can only do so if the relevant contact details have been entered as we're not responsibile for updating these details. All this information is noted in your case and can be used as evidence if you chose to pursue your claim formally. I know this isn't the response you were hoping for and I'm sorry for any further disappointment this causes you.
Also, the TA said they called Trade Support at BA where BA told them to tell me to call Customer Relations and that they would rebook me (this suggest it was BA who had control over the booking not the TA). The TA was adamant they could not change the booking and I received several follow up emails from them stating this and apologising that they could not do anything for me - as seen by the Twitter response, BA did have control over my booking.
The contact details on MMB were the email which I booked with (still can be contacted on) and as far as I can remember, my phone number which I kept up date. The booking was also linked to my exec account which had up date emails and contact numbers on.
I'm unsure where to really go next with this, I feel if I go down the MCOL route, BA will probably find a way out of it.
Last edited by pallan12; Jan 14, 2017 at 9:14 pm
Jan 14, 2017, 9:08 pm
#74
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 159
Further update from them:
So they've now changed tune from 'we would have contacted you if we had contact details' to admitting they did have my contact details and in fact had three ways of contacting me, but didn't?
One of the issues I do have with them saying the TA should have contacted me is that, if they did have control over my booking as they said they had, then even if the TA contacted me, would the TA have been able to change the flights if it was under BA control?
They've now admitted they had control over my booking (I presume this means they were responsible for any changes and for rebooking me?) and that they did have three methods to contact me on but didn't. Where do I stand with this now? They have contradicted themselves so much.
I can see your booking contained 2 email addresses and a mobile number. I appreciate you could've been contacted on either of these. However, the notification was sent to your travel agent via an automated system. I know this is frustrating for you and I'm very sorry. ^Linds
One of the issues I do have with them saying the TA should have contacted me is that, if they did have control over my booking as they said they had, then even if the TA contacted me, would the TA have been able to change the flights if it was under BA control?
They've now admitted they had control over my booking (I presume this means they were responsible for any changes and for rebooking me?) and that they did have three methods to contact me on but didn't. Where do I stand with this now? They have contradicted themselves so much.
Last edited by pallan12; Jan 14, 2017 at 9:16 pm
Jan 14, 2017, 9:16 pm
#75
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Airlines always have control over your booking, however, they do not touch other then when they change schedules etc. They then notify TA (or you if you booked directly with them). So in your case, if they can prove that they contacted your TA on time, they are out of EC, IMHO. You will now have to take it with the TA and seek compensation from TA.