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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Sep 12, 17, 11:12 am
  #1381  
 
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Originally Posted by Joshm300 View Post
Hi all,

My Brother is currently on a (non ba (apologies)) flight that is most likely going to be 3 hours delayed due to the strike in France today.

Will this qualify for EU261 or is this classed as outside the airline's control?

Cheers
JM

EU261 won't apply.
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Old Sep 12, 17, 11:13 am
  #1382  
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Strikes as usually considered to be extraordinary circumstances so no EU261 compensation.

I believe the airline will still have a duty of care obligation.
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Old Sep 13, 17, 3:51 am
  #1383  
 
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EU Reg. 261/04 will apply, but no compensation as this is a text book example of delay caused by "extraordinary circumstances" which exempt the airline from paying compensation. The duty of care (hotel, meal voucher) still applies though.
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Old Sep 13, 17, 6:53 am
  #1384  
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There was a recent judgement from the CJEU on a EU261 implying connection. I put a link in the thread for documentation purpose, this might be useful information for future similar cases:
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp170092en.pdf

The compensation payable to passengers in the event of cancellation or long delay of a connecting flight must be calculated according to the radial distance between the departure and arrival airports The fact that the distance actually covered by such a flight is, as a result of the connection, greater than the distance between the departure and arrival airports has no impact on the calculation of compensation
[snip]

In that regard, the Court considers that the nature of the flight (direct flight or connecting flight) has no impact on the extent of the inconvenience suffered by the passengers. Consequently, when determining the amount of compensation in the case of a connecting flight, only the radial distance (‘great circle’ distance) that a direct flight would cover between the departure airport and the arrival airport should be taken into consideration.
Emphasis by the CJEU
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Last edited by fransknorge; Sep 13, 17 at 8:37 am Reason: Clarification added
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Old Sep 13, 17, 7:42 am
  #1385  
 
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
EU261 won't apply.
Is the wrong answer.

EC261 does apply, just that the traveller is not entitled to compensation for exceptional circumstances. Section 9 Right to Care still applies.
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Old Sep 13, 17, 8:35 am
  #1386  
 
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Further to my previous posts, I'm just coming back with an update. To summarise my interactions with BA so far (on my partners behalf):

-Delay on BA2717 AGP-LGW 13th July, >3hrs.
-Pilot apologises for delay and states technical fault at previous destination.
-EC261 Claim Submitted on return.
-Denied claiming airspace restrictions.
-ATC delay disputed, supplied timings of previous flights supporting delay at previous destination.
-Denied stating that the delay occurred because of "aircraft damage that wasn't caused by us, there was a power supply fault which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled"

Since my last post, I have contacted BA and asked for a final decision letter, the reason for the delay to the aircraft and the reason that BA felt it wasn't eligible for compensation.

BA responded saying:

Originally Posted by BACR
I've discussed your complaint with my manager, and I'm afraid our decision isn't going to change, and we're unable to offer you any form of compensation.
I responded to BA pointing out that I hadn't asked them to change their decision on this occasion, I had asked for a final decision letter, the reason for the delay and why it wasn't eligible. I once again asked for that.

BA have today responded:

Originally Posted by BACR
I've discussed your request with my manager. After receiving further information from our Flight Investigation Team I'm pleased to inform you, you're entitled to EU compensation for the delay BA2717 Malaga to London Gatwick on 13 July.
I thought it polite to sum up the contact I had with BA and provide the outcome, and to thank those that provided information to assist me in my contact with BA.
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Old Sep 13, 17, 9:52 am
  #1387  
 
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Originally Posted by memorex View Post
Further to my previous posts, I'm just coming back with an update. To summarise my interactions with BA so far (on my partners behalf):

-Delay on BA2717 AGP-LGW 13th July, >3hrs.
-Pilot apologises for delay and states technical fault at previous destination.
-EC261 Claim Submitted on return.
-Denied claiming airspace restrictions.
-ATC delay disputed, supplied timings of previous flights supporting delay at previous destination.
-Denied stating that the delay occurred because of "aircraft damage that wasn't caused by us, there was a power supply fault which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled"

Since my last post, I have contacted BA and asked for a final decision letter, the reason for the delay to the aircraft and the reason that BA felt it wasn't eligible for compensation.

BA responded saying:



I responded to BA pointing out that I hadn't asked them to change their decision on this occasion, I had asked for a final decision letter, the reason for the delay and why it wasn't eligible. I once again asked for that.

BA have today responded:



I thought it polite to sum up the contact I had with BA and provide the outcome, and to thank those that provided information to assist me in my contact with BA.
It just shows what is achieved with persistence and rather consistent with what has happened in other cases.

Although perish the thought that BA were being deliberately dishonest.
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Old Sep 13, 17, 10:02 am
  #1388  
 
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Originally Posted by memorex View Post
I thought it polite to sum up the contact I had with BA and provide the outcome, and to thank those that provided information to assist me in my contact with BA.
Well done. Shows what persistence brings.

As I predicted earlier BA capsized once the prospect of MCOL materialised and the inconsistencies in their argument were exposed.
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Old Sep 15, 17, 9:31 am
  #1389  
 
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Hello All - I made a claim a few weeks ago for BA flights to Freetown in Nov 2012. I received a reply within 2 weeks stating I am entitled to full compensation and requesting my bank details to proceed with payment. I was dubious about a hacker at first and reluctant to click the link to reply. I had a computer technician check out the link (which strangely ended in .ba) and he confirmed it was ok. Thanks from me and my fellow passenger to this thread for giving us the resolve to apply directly to BA rather than using agencies which charge very high fees and (some at least) are not transparent with their clients. I will let you know what happens next.
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Old Sep 15, 17, 10:00 am
  #1390  
 
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Originally Posted by AbileneBound View Post
Hello everybody!

I have a query about whether you guys think I would be entitled to compensation. The circumstances are these:

I was booked on flight BA0193 LHR to DFW on the 15th August. BA emailed me on the 11th August to say the flight had been cancelled and I was now booked on a flight the following day.

My reading of this was that I qualified for 600 Euro as I wasn't given sufficient notice, I arrived in the US 24 hours later than booked, and the flight is 7,000km. So I immediately applied.

I just got a response from BA saying "BA0193 on 15 August was cancelled because of operational circumstances outside of our control, which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, Iím afraid weíre not liable for a compensation payment in this situation."

But that's all the information I have - no other explanation for the cancellation has been given. I've asked for more details, but what reason for this cancellation is likely to back up their position, or negate it? Any ideas?
I finally got a response from BA addressing my query as to the explanation for the cancellation and refusal of compensation. It reads:

"Iíve reviewed your claim and as per our records your flight BA0193 was cancelled due Industrial Action being in place which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, Iím afraid weíre not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.

On the day you were due to travel, industrial action was carried out by British Airways cabin crew. Strikes are an extraordinary circumstance and are outside of our control. Iím afraid this meant we had no option but to delay your flight.

Article 5.3 of the EU Regulation 261/2004 states that a carrier is not obliged to pay compensation if it can prove that the delay or cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances that couldnít have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. In Recital 14 and 15 of EU Regulation 261/2004, extraordinary circumstances include weather, strike and the impact of an air traffic management decision which gives rise to a long delay. This means youíre not entitled to compensation under the EU Regulation for your delayed flight.

I realise this will be disappointing for you but I hope this information will help you to understand our decision."

As expected, they are claiming that the industrial action was an "extraordinary circumstance". However, the CAA's page on this says that extraordinary circumstances would include "Strikes (unrelated to the airline such as, airport staff, ground handlers, or air traffic control)". However, this strike was very definitely related to the airline so it seems to me (and I believe others here) that this would NOT be considered extraordinary.

The only question remaining is, has anyone actually succeeded in claiming compensation because of a cancellation caused by the cabin crew? Or will I be the first?
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Old Sep 15, 17, 10:08 am
  #1391  
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Originally Posted by AbileneBound View Post
I finally got a response from BA addressing my query as to the explanation for the cancellation and refusal of compensation. It reads:

"Iíve reviewed your claim and as per our records your flight BA0193 was cancelled due Industrial Action being in place which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, Iím afraid weíre not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.

On the day you were due to travel, industrial action was carried out by British Airways cabin crew. Strikes are an extraordinary circumstance and are outside of our control. Iím afraid this meant we had no option but to delay your flight.

Article 5.3 of the EU Regulation 261/2004 states that a carrier is not obliged to pay compensation if it can prove that the delay or cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances that couldnít have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. In Recital 14 and 15 of EU Regulation 261/2004, extraordinary circumstances include weather, strike and the impact of an air traffic management decision which gives rise to a long delay. This means youíre not entitled to compensation under the EU Regulation for your delayed flight.

I realise this will be disappointing for you but I hope this information will help you to understand our decision."

As expected, they are claiming that the industrial action was an "extraordinary circumstance". However, the CAA's page on this says that extraordinary circumstances would include "Strikes (unrelated to the airline such as, airport staff, ground handlers, or air traffic control)". However, this strike was very definitely related to the airline so it seems to me (and I believe others here) that this would NOT be considered extraordinary.

The only question remaining is, has anyone actually succeeded in claiming compensation because of a cancellation caused by the cabin crew? Or will I be the first?
The text above in red should be your response to BA.
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Old Sep 15, 17, 10:11 am
  #1392  
 
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I have a claim in for the same thing, with the same response (and rebuttal).
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Old Sep 15, 17, 10:23 am
  #1393  
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Originally Posted by Mattt1 View Post
I have a claim in for the same thing, with the same response (and rebuttal).
If it was the same route (DFW) I'm of the view that it is not industrial action since to the best of my knowledge no DFW rostered flight crew have been on strike. The precise wording of EC261 talks about reasonable steps to avoid disruption, and for the flight in case that doesn't apply, particularly if you were not scheduled on a near exactly timed AA flight (or other carrier, of which there are many). If my logic is correct then this is before we get to the CAA's own definitions mentioned above.

My original reply to AbileneBound01 is here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28774323-post1340.html

Welcome nevertheless Mattt1, welcome to the BA board here on Flyertalk. I hope you resolve this quickly and that you will continue to be active in this forum.
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Old Sep 15, 17, 1:03 pm
  #1394  
 
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If a service is overbooked and BA ask for volunteers at check in and you accept, incur an delay to arrival by more than 3 hours, are they liable for compensation?

I guess what I am saying is, does being a volunteer vs involuntary denied boarding get treated differently?
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Old Sep 15, 17, 1:07 pm
  #1395  
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Originally Posted by CommanderB View Post
If a service is overbooked and BA ask for volunteers at check in and you accept, incur an delay to arrival by more than 3 hours, are they liable for compensation?

I guess what I am saying is, does being a volunteer vs involuntary denied boarding get treated differently?
Volunteers who agree a different settlement with BA and are rebooked are differently differently, since they are deemed to have agreed a reticketing. Normally on BA the compensation for volunteers is very similar to the EC261 compensation amounts anyway. But you can't double-dip on that.
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