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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Sep 11, 17, 3:10 am
  #1366  
 
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Hi everyone

I'd previously filed a claim for compensation after a July evening flight out of Bergerac was delayed until the afternoon the following day, meaning that I booked myself onto an early flight the following morning out of Toulouse on easyjet to ensure I got to London when I needed to be there. All rebooking options that BA offered would have got me to London far too late.

BA have rejected my claim on the basis that I did not travel on the delayed flight and so am no longer entitled to compensation. To quote their initial reply:

"I'm sorry to learn about the flight BA8746 on the 2 July 2017 that was delayed until the next day. As you didn't travel on this ticket, you are not eligible for EU compensation. You would have had to travel on this flight or one that we rebooked you on to be entitled to this. I understand this is disappointing to hear, but you are entitled to a full refund of this ticket. "

When I queried this the following reply was given:

"Our position hasn't changed therefore your claim for EU compensation is denied. As previously mentioned, you choose to make your own way back and have requested a refund of your unused ticket.

As your contract of carriage with us was broken and you were no longer in our care, you're not entitle to EU compensation. I'm sorry for any disappointment caused."

My question here, is it still worth me pursuing the compensation given the above responses? I feel like although the flight was delayed, it was essentially a cancellation as it left the next day, about 20 hours its scheduled departure time. And is it not immaterial if I chose to make my own way back to London, given that if I had stuck around and travelled on my BA ticket, I would have been entitled to compensation at any rate?

Any help gratefully received.
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Old Sep 11, 17, 3:41 am
  #1367  
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Originally Posted by runway27L View Post
Hi everyone

I'd previously filed a claim for compensation after a July evening flight out of Bergerac was delayed until the afternoon the following day, meaning that I booked myself onto an early flight the following morning out of Toulouse on easyjet to ensure I got to London when I needed to be there. All rebooking options that BA offered would have got me to London far too late.

BA have rejected my claim on the basis that I did not travel on the delayed flight and so am no longer entitled to compensation. To quote their initial reply:

"I'm sorry to learn about the flight BA8746 on the 2 July 2017 that was delayed until the next day. As you didn't travel on this ticket, you are not eligible for EU compensation. You would have had to travel on this flight or one that we rebooked you on to be entitled to this. I understand this is disappointing to hear, but you are entitled to a full refund of this ticket. "

When I queried this the following reply was given:

"Our position hasn't changed therefore your claim for EU compensation is denied. As previously mentioned, you choose to make your own way back and have requested a refund of your unused ticket.

As your contract of carriage with us was broken and you were no longer in our care, you're not entitle to EU compensation. I'm sorry for any disappointment caused."

My question here, is it still worth me pursuing the compensation given the above responses? I feel like although the flight was delayed, it was essentially a cancellation as it left the next day, about 20 hours its scheduled departure time. And is it not immaterial if I chose to make my own way back to London, given that if I had stuck around and travelled on my BA ticket, I would have been entitled to compensation at any rate?

Any help gratefully received.
did you have any subsequent legs on that ticket or was this the inbound leg of your ticket? and when did you (eventually) arrive london?

Anyways, i believe you should reword your claim to suit the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...ation_261/2004
If a flight is delayed by five hours, passengers are additionally entitled to abandon their journey and receive a refund for all unused tickets,
a refund on tickets used already if the flight no longer serves any purpose in relation to their original travel plan,
and, if relevant, a flight back to their original point of departure at the earliest opportunity.
I would see this as a refund of the original ticket - you can also try claim this flight as replacement transport option for the delayed flight.

Also, IF your "delayed" flight can be seen as "cancelled" (Sturgeon v Condor), then perhaps you could claim the compensation. perhaps you'll have to raise ur case to CEDR or MCOL. I dont see how if your flight were seen as "cancelled" you can be expected to take it. so i THINK you may be qualified to apply for the compensation too, tho i shall also leave this to be confirmed by one of us who is more knowledgeable on this matter.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/legal_servic.../07c402_en.pdf
On the other hand, the Court interprets the relevant
provisions of the Regulation in the light
of the general principle of equal treatment.
According to the Court, the situation of passengers who have reached their destination
with a delay of more than three hours as a result of a cancellation or a mere delay of
their flight is comparable from the point of view of damage suffered.

Last edited by kaka; Sep 11, 17 at 3:50 am
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Old Sep 11, 17, 4:21 am
  #1368  
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Originally Posted by runway27L View Post
BA have rejected my claim on the basis that I did not travel on the delayed flight and so am no longer entitled to compensation. To quote their initial reply:

"I'm sorry to learn about the flight BA8746 on the 2 July 2017 that was delayed until the next day. As you didn't travel on this ticket, you are not eligible for EU compensation. You would have had to travel on this flight or one that we rebooked you on to be entitled to this. I understand this is disappointing to hear, but you are entitled to a full refund of this ticket. "
On the rebooking side, BA are probably in the right here, they offered a rebooked service, presumably 24 hours later and I doubt that would be regarded as unreasonable. The Regulation is unclear and untested (to the best of my knowledge) as to whether you have the right to be rebooked onto easyJet in that situation, but from a small airport there are going to be limited options.

The refund issue is clear even under BA's own conditions of carriage, you can have an involuntary fare refund after a 5 hour delay.

The Article 7 bit. Now if that was a cancellation you would be entitled to Article 7, so if the aircraft hadn't left Bergerac for whatever reason, then to me that's a delay. If the LCY departure also hadn't taken place then that seems to me to be a cancellation, LCY is a hub for BACF so they should have the ability to run an alternative service on the same day. It definitely is a cancellation if there was supposed to be a service the next day anyway. If there wasn't a service that day and BA inserted a new flight then you're in a weaker position. If you have a screenshot from BA.com or LCY airport saying "cancelled" then you are in a stronger position.

If you can argue "I waited 3 hours waiting for BA to provide me with a service and the I gave up and went to easyJet", then I think you can plausibly claim EC261 unless BA offered an alternative to you, and assuming it wasn't extraordinary circumstances. I know of circumstances where BA have paid out for this. BA didn't give you an alternative to the 3 hour delay therefore they are on the hook for that. If the easyJet service got you back within the 3 hours then personally that looks like you chose to opt out of your BA arrangements and use another carrier, either way you weren't delayed 3 hours. You mentioned that BA offered other rebooking options so without knowing the details of that then it is unclear what else may have been on the table.

Now I doubt you'll get any further forward with BA on this, so you need to think about CEDR or MCOL. In this particular case I don't think it matters which you choose.

I don't know if insurance would have covered any financial loss here.
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Old Sep 11, 17, 4:42 am
  #1369  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
... BA didn't give you an alternative to the 3 hour delay therefore they are on the hook for that. If the easyJet service got you back within the 3 hours then personally that looks like you chose to opt out of your BA arrangements and use another carrier, either way you weren't delayed 3 hours. You mentioned that BA offered other rebooking options so without knowing the details of that then it is unclear what else may have been on the table ...
Many thanks kaka and CWS.

CWS - in answer to the above, the flight I was due to take was the last BA flight out of Bergerac on a Sunday evening and other BA flights for the day in the region (Bordeaux, Toulouse) had either flown or were about to and so it would've been impossible to be rebooked on to any of those. So the rebookings offered by BA were all for the next morning or afternoon (i.e. 12+ hours later than my initial Bergerac flight). I will pursue on that basis.

EDIT: I should add that the easyJet flight I took was v early the next morning. So again, well over 3 hours from the initial scheduled BA flight time.

Last edited by runway27L; Sep 11, 17 at 4:49 am
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Old Sep 11, 17, 9:36 am
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
The Article 7 bit. Now if that was a cancellation you would be entitled to Article 7, so if the aircraft hadn't left Bergerac for whatever reason, then to me that's a delay. If the LCY departure also hadn't taken place then that seems to me to be a cancellation, LCY is a hub for BACF so they should have the ability to run an alternative service on the same day. It definitely is a cancellation if there was supposed to be a service the next day anyway. If there wasn't a service that day and BA inserted a new flight then you're in a weaker position. If you have a screenshot from BA.com or LCY airport saying "cancelled" then you are in a stronger position.

If you can argue "I waited 3 hours waiting for BA to provide me with a service and the I gave up and went to easyJet", then I think you can plausibly claim EC261 unless BA offered an alternative to you, and assuming it wasn't extraordinary circumstances. I know of circumstances where BA have paid out for this. BA didn't give you an alternative to the 3 hour delay therefore they are on the hook for that. If the easyJet service got you back within the 3 hours then personally that looks like you chose to opt out of your BA arrangements and use another carrier, either way you weren't delayed 3 hours. You mentioned that BA offered other rebooking options so without knowing the details of that then it is unclear what else may have been on the table.
Dont from Sturgeon and Boeck it was ruled that a delay >5 hours would be "good as a cancellation"? So when Bergerac-London was "delayed" over 5 hours and runway27L then took a TLS-LON flight the next day when BA couldnt get him/her anything better, it can be seen as flight cancelled and Art 7 should kick in!?
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Old Sep 11, 17, 10:03 am
  #1371  
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Originally Posted by kaka View Post
Dont from Sturgeon and Boeck it was ruled that a delay >5 hours would be "good as a cancellation"?
The argument will be that with a cancellation there is no avoiding the fact that anyone booked on the flight was affected by it, and it's spelled out clearly in EC261. In the case of delays it is more complicated because the flight still operated (though it's not entirely clear here, since it's unusual for BACF to do that) and those who travelled on the delayed service clearly are entitled to Article 7 after 3 hours (not 5 hours) assuming no extraordinary circumstances. The problem here is the passenger didn't actually travel on a booked flight, so BA have an arguable case that since they didn't use their confirmed reservation, they aren't covered by the protection that accrues from that reservation: Article 3.2 says that the customer must present themselves for check-in at the stipulated time.

However against that there was no avoiding a 3 hour plus delay, BA provided no practical alternative to that, and this would be my line of argument. Sturgeon did not directly say that delay = cancellation, I don't think it's that simple, but it certainly did point to the need for "equal treatment". Moreover the judgement simply talked about the delay suffered by the passenger, rather than the exact way it happened. So the passenger here suffered (I think) a 12 hour delay using easyJet, BA (I think) offered a 24 hour delay, but there was no avoiding the 3 hour delay. To my mind that is the critical point here.
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Old Sep 11, 17, 6:46 pm
  #1372  
 
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Here is a quick question.
Can BA (or any other airline for that matter) still deny EU compensation due to weather if the arrival airport reopens before the planned scheduled departure time and the airline has cancelled the flight already? Also doesn't the airline still have a duty of care re hotel/meal costs even if due to weather?
The airline could have at least waited until the day to cancel if the airport was still closed.
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Old Sep 12, 17, 3:17 am
  #1373  
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Originally Posted by SonTech View Post
Here is a quick question.
Can BA (or any other airline for that matter) still deny EU compensation due to weather if the arrival airport reopens before the planned scheduled departure time and the airline has cancelled the flight already? Also doesn't the airline still have a duty of care re hotel/meal costs even if due to weather?
The airline could have at least waited until the day to cancel if the airport was still closed.

Yes it can deny EU261 as when it cancelled the flight the airport was closed which is a valid exception. Once the flight was cancelled then the plane and crew would likely have been re-assingned to other duties and it's not that easy to just reinstate it. Also it is not just the airport being open that is considered. In the current circumstances is there anywhere safe for crew to stay overnight (to operate future return flights for example) would be also a consideration.

Yes it does

I think that most people would prefer advance notice of a cancellation so they can prepare and if necessary change any other arrangements they may have. For example if the flight is delayed a day then some people might prefer to stay at home or at an existing hotel rather than in a hotel organised at the last minute by the airline.
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Old Sep 12, 17, 3:49 am
  #1374  
 
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Is that even when the second flight which arrives a couple of hours later is still operating and it was generally stated by the airport that it would be operating that day?
And there is plently of safe places for the crew to stay and as far as the arrival airport is concerned the flight is still showing as arriving on time and the airline saying they have missed their departure slot..?
I have friends stuck for 3 day so just trying to help them out. Airline now agreed to pay hotel and food costs.

Last edited by SonTech; Sep 12, 17 at 3:55 am
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Old Sep 12, 17, 6:13 am
  #1375  
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Originally Posted by SonTech View Post
Is that even when the second flight which arrives a couple of hours later is still operating and it was generally stated by the airport that it would be operating that day?
And there is plently of safe places for the crew to stay and as far as the arrival airport is concerned the flight is still showing as arriving on time and the airline saying they have missed their departure slot..?
I have friends stuck for 3 day so just trying to help them out. Airline now agreed to pay hotel and food costs.
To stop us guessing and information being fed on the drip, what route and date are we talking about?
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Old Sep 12, 17, 6:18 am
  #1376  
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Originally Posted by SonTech View Post
I have friends stuck for 3 day so just trying to help them out. Airline now agreed to pay hotel and food costs.
It's good they have you available to help them, these sorts of situations can get complex. But the simple point is that Right to Care almost certainly exists if it's a European airline, Article 7 will be potentially payable if extraordinary circumstances apply. Now these are general statements but the specifics tend to be important. One aspect that may be relevant here is if another airline is operating parallel services on the day in question, and another is not, then that would perhaps point to something that isn't extraordinary. But even that isn't conclusive, e.g. different equipment may explain different outcomes.
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Old Sep 12, 17, 6:26 am
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Good news for me as Gotogate have finally refunded me for my cancelled flights, on May 27. Now I await BA to pay me the difference between this amount and what I paid for replacement tickets - about 7.5k
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Old Sep 12, 17, 8:00 am
  #1378  
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post
To stop us guessing and information being fed on the drip, what route and date are we talking about?
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
It's good they have you available to help them, these sorts of situations can get complex. But the simple point is that Right to Care almost certainly exists if it's a European airline, Article 7 will be potentially payable if extraordinary circumstances apply. Now these are general statements but the specifics tend to be important. One aspect that may be relevant here is if another airline is operating parallel services on the day in question, and another is not, then that would perhaps point to something that isn't extraordinary. But even that isn't conclusive, e.g. different equipment may explain different outcomes.
This is an Irma related flight to MCO that I was responding to this post from the OP up thread. (OP has posted a comment in the Irma thread as well)

Originally Posted by SonTech View Post
Here is a quick question.
Can BA (or any other airline for that matter) still deny EU compensation due to weather if the arrival airport reopens before the planned scheduled departure time and the airline has cancelled the flight already? Also doesn't the airline still have a duty of care re hotel/meal costs even if due to weather?
The airline could have at least waited until the day to cancel if the airport was still closed.

At the time BA cancelled the MCO flight the airport wasn't open but it did subsequently did open and BA didn't reinstate the cancelled flight.
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Old Sep 12, 17, 9:25 am
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
This is an Irma related flight to MCO that I was responding to this post from the OP up thread. (OP has posted a comment in the Irma thread as well)




At the time BA cancelled the MCO flight the airport wasn't open but it did subsequently did open and BA didn't reinstate the cancelled flight.
Yep its the LGW to MCO flight. We have family on the second flight (transfered from Mindays flight) which has departed, some on the first one which was cancelled and also family stuck in Dublin who should have travelled Monday Dub to MCO but got seats in the todays flight inly to be cancelled and now have to go via Boston on Thursday..

Sorry for the delay in replying but was on my way to the Magic Kingdom..
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Old Sep 12, 17, 11:08 am
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French general strike and EU261

Hi all,

My Brother is currently on a (non ba (apologies)) flight that is most likely going to be 3 hours delayed due to the strike in France today.

Will this qualify for EU261 or is this classed as outside the airline's control?

Cheers
JM
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