Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jul 26, 17, 6:03 am
  #1141  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,480
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
plus there is now a well established concept that suppliers can be rebilled by the operating carrier.
On that point I'm not so sure. For most airlines it is very difficult to get ground handlers to accept liability for EU261 bills since these can far outweigh the service charges. EU261 costs remain mostly with the airlines.
Ldnn1 is online now  
Old Jul 26, 17, 7:13 am
  #1142  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 271
EC261 compensation for recent BA strikes

This might have been discussed before - apologies if that's the case.

I've contacted a few flight compensation lawyers and 3 out of 3 are happy to take my case of claiming compensation for a cancelled flight due to industrial action at BA. They all agree "internal strikes" aren't extraordinary circumstances.

I was slightly surprised by this - has anyone had any luck with this, maybe even without support from a lawyer?
just_starting is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 7:55 am
  #1143  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Platinum & Ambassador
Posts: 10,470
Originally Posted by amanx View Post
I claimed and they paid u w/o question. They did try to fob me off with an offer of 60K avios, I said no thanks give me the cash (in GBP). They did.
They did not try and fob you off. They gave you an option of cash or miles.

Such non cash offers are specifically mentioned in EU261

Article 7.3

The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services.
UKtravelbear is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 10:59 am
  #1144  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Around somewhere
Programs: Bronze, Some red card and some hotel cards.
Posts: 352
Originally Posted by just_starting View Post
This might have been discussed before - apologies if that's the case.

I've contacted a few flight compensation lawyers and 3 out of 3 are happy to take my case of claiming compensation for a cancelled flight due to industrial action at BA. They all agree "internal strikes" aren't extraordinary circumstances.

I was slightly surprised by this - has anyone had any luck with this, maybe even without support from a lawyer?
Don't think any one has been successful otherwise I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it on here by now.

No airline can force its workers not to strike so its outwith the airlines control if they do strike. It will, imho, be a very dangerous route to go down if they change it so strikes are not considered extraordinary circumstances with the balance shifting heavily to unions that will use it as a very big stick with which the airline cannot really counter. If it happens I can see every airline being effected by strike action with unions holding out for unrealistic pay rises knowing the airlines would have to pay out 100's to each passenger which ultimately would mean airlines would collapse and fare would shoot up.
SonTech is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 11:14 am
  #1145  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 271
Originally Posted by SonTech View Post
Don't think any one has been successful otherwise I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it on here by now.

No airline can force its workers not to strike so its outwith the airlines control if they do strike. It will, imho, be a very dangerous route to go down if they change it so strikes are not considered extraordinary circumstances with the balance shifting heavily to unions that will use it as a very big stick with which the airline cannot really counter. If it happens I can see every airline being effected by strike action with unions holding out for unrealistic pay rises knowing the airlines would have to pay out 100's to each passenger which ultimately would mean airlines would collapse and fare would shoot up.
Apparently one of the guys has been successful taking Air France to court after their last strike. I'll follow through and let you know...
just_starting is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 11:49 am
  #1146  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lausanne Switzerland
Programs: BA Gold; Swiss Blue
Posts: 1,044
While the strike may or may not constitute extra-ordinary circumstances... the cancelling of services such as flights to GVA 3 times in the last week, which is not run by the striking cabin crew, is nothing other than on economic grounds by BA.

Likewise the person fro TPA who was delayed his ticket was from TPA to LGW if i read the post correctly... The whys and wherefores of the delay to the inbound aircraft are not relevant IMHO.

This just puts up a smoke screen. If the airline does not have a turnaround schedule that takes into account such non exceptional happenings then it is their fault it they can not provide that which they advertise and sell very happily, and should be made to pay.


If the EU261 had been thought out better it would have mandated an ombudsman service to receive all requests and decide who was to be paid, and bill the airlines directly while paying the claimants directly, and not allow the airlines to fob people off.
SWISSBOBBY is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 3:27 pm
  #1147  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by just_starting View Post
This might have been discussed before - apologies if that's the case.

I've contacted a few flight compensation lawyers and 3 out of 3 are happy to take my case of claiming compensation for a cancelled flight due to industrial action at BA. They all agree "internal strikes" aren't extraordinary circumstances.

I was slightly surprised by this - has anyone had any luck with this, maybe even without support from a lawyer?
This is from up thread...

Interesting to read a little snippet in the CAA's document summarising reasons for the DfT to approve the Qatar leases.

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...viceForDfT.pdf

23. It is argued that for the purposes of compensation for delay or cancellation under EU Regulation 261/2004, the industrial action would be unlikely to be deemed an “extraordinary circumstance”. However, that view is based on the airline having sufficient opportunity to lease in aircraft to cover, which is the purpose of this application.

If I read this correctly, the CAA is saying that by recommending the application their view is that industrial action should not be grounds for avoiding EC261 compensation?


Which, on the face of it imo, seems to be an agreement between BA + CAA that the airline would not claim the strike was an EC, so long as they could bring in additional aircraft from Qatar.

Further, by definition, if the strike is within the airline, it must be within it's control. Therefore not an EC.

Last edited by Tyzap; Jul 26, 17 at 3:33 pm
Tyzap is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 4:35 pm
  #1148  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Lemonia. Best Greek ever.
Posts: 1,532
Ldnn1.
Your definition of what is within and what is not within the airline's control is much narrower than that of the EU reg and that of the few Court cases. "Exceptional" means precisely that. I think a Court case would now agree that a BA strike by BA staff is not exceptional and is not out side BA's control. A French ATCO strike is not, of course, exceptional, but is probably outside BA's control.
Ancient Observer is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 5:10 pm
  #1149  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,480
Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
Ldnn1.
Your definition of what is within and what is not within the airline's control is much narrower than that of the EU reg and that of the few Court cases. "Exceptional" means precisely that. I think a Court case would now agree that a BA strike by BA staff is not exceptional and is not out side BA's control. A French ATCO strike is not, of course, exceptional, but is probably outside BA's control.
I don't think I've given a definition, have I?

However I would disagree with your assertion that 'exceptional' - or indeed 'extraordinary', which is the actual word in the Reg - "means precisely that". It means what the courts say it means. A lot of weather is not extraordinary but counts as such under the Reg.

You'll also note that the word control does not appear in the Reg at all.

As to the strike - again I don't think I've made any comment about that upthread. I agree that a court could well (in my view, should) consider a strike by BA crew not to be an extraordinary circumstance which could not have been avoided having taken all reasonable measures.

Indeed logically speaking, a court would surely have to find that the demands of the union were themselves unreasonable, in order to find that acceding to the demands in order to avoid the strike was not a reasonable measure... no?

Please excuse the negation ad infinitum.
Ldnn1 is online now  
Old Jul 26, 17, 6:20 pm
  #1150  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Lemonia. Best Greek ever.
Posts: 1,532
It is economical with the truth to deny liability when precedents make liability obvious. It is called a lie. If I lie to you to avoid paying you, it is still a lie.
Ancient Observer is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 9:43 pm
  #1151  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,279
Originally Posted by just_starting View Post
This might have been discussed before - apologies if that's the case.

I've contacted a few flight compensation lawyers and 3 out of 3 are happy to take my case of claiming compensation for a cancelled flight due to industrial action at BA. They all agree "internal strikes" aren't extraordinary circumstances.

I was slightly surprised by this - has anyone had any luck with this, maybe even without support from a lawyer?
I haven't been affected by the strikes but, if I were, in the light of the CAA letter I would definitely be contacting them.

If say Bott & Co are willing to take it on what have you to lose.
simons1 is offline  
Old Jul 26, 17, 10:00 pm
  #1152  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Programs: BA Exec
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by just_starting View Post
This might have been discussed before - apologies if that's the case.

I've contacted a few flight compensation lawyers and 3 out of 3 are happy to take my case of claiming compensation for a cancelled flight due to industrial action at BA. They all agree "internal strikes" aren't extraordinary circumstances.

I was slightly surprised by this - has anyone had any luck with this, maybe even without support from a lawyer?
Very interested to know how you get on with this one as I just today received a response rejecting an EC261 claim I made early July from LHR-IAH due to the staff industrial action.

I have responded stating the action was announced in Jun giving over 2 weeks between this and my flight time so adequate time to cover any forecast outages, which I think is a reasonable stance? Staffing issues are surely part and parcel of running a large company such as BA I would have thought? Cant be too long before this one gets changed??

Or am I being overly optimistic?
Bmm1977 is offline  
Old Jul 27, 17, 2:50 am
  #1153  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 271
Bott, Weclaim and Flightright are all willing to take the case. Weclaim (being French) claim they have been successful with AF during their strike. Flightright are usually my lawyers of choice though so I'm still weighing up the options!

Probably doesn't matter, but BA also refused to rebook be on the AB flight on the same route and day.

Last edited by just_starting; Jul 27, 17 at 4:15 am
just_starting is offline  
Old Jul 27, 17, 3:35 am
  #1154  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,480
Originally Posted by just_starting View Post
Bott, Weclaim and Flightright are all willing to take the case. Weclaim (being French) claim they have been successful with AF during their strike. Flightright are usually my lawyers of choice though so I'm still weighing up the options!

Probably doesn't matter, but BA also refused to rebook be on the AB flight on the same route and day.
Ok - I'm not sure why you're quoting me there though! My post you quoted wasn't related to the strike at all - it was about whether airlines can contractually recover amounts they pay out under EU261 from their ground handlers when the handlers are the ones at fault. This has nothing to do with whether or not the airlines themselves are liable to the customer, and absolutely nothing to do with the crew strike.
Ldnn1 is online now  
Old Jul 27, 17, 4:15 am
  #1155  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 271
Originally Posted by Ldnn1 View Post
Ok - I'm not sure why you're quoting me there though! My post you quoted wasn't related to the strike at all - it was about whether airlines can contractually recover amounts they pay out under EU261 from their ground handlers when the handlers are the ones at fault. This has nothing to do with whether or not the airlines themselves are liable to the customer, and absolutely nothing to do with the crew strike.
Woops sorry - meant to hit Reply rather than Quote!
just_starting is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread