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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Old Jun 5, 2017, 8:11 am
  #751  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Welcome to Flyertalk Czarmander and welcome to the BA forum in particular. I hope that this is just the start of your participation in this forum, which I hope you will find useful.

You may want to check some of the recent posts here, since you're not the first to have come across this. If the HKG flight was on time and just the ARN flight was affected, then BA are doing what most (all?) airlines are doing in paying the shorthaul level of compensation. Had it been the other direction, starting from ARN, then the longhaul compensation would be payable.

This is a contentious area, there is a respectable view that this is the wrong approach, but the Regulation refers to "flights" in this area rather than "trips" or "journey". So you are unlikely to get more unless you are prepared to take this to a (potentially senior) court.
This is now a hypothetical - so apologies for clogging this thread - but it's germane to the above. If (a) I were flying ARN-LHR-HKG (on one ticket) on BA, (b) my flight from ARN to LHR were delayed by 3 hours, but (c) I still made my connection (let's say I'd chosen a 5 hour connect) for the flight to HKG so I did not end up ultimately delayed at HKG, would BA still pay EU 261 comp for the first-leg ARN to LHR delay?
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 8:17 am
  #752  
 
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I'd be most grateful for some general EU261 advice please.

I bought a ticket for September with Aegean LUX-ATH-KWI but they have cancelled the second flight. The route will terminate earlier than originally planned. They are offering a refund but not to reroute (on another airline).

Under EU261 are A3 obliged to offer alternative flights with other carriers (i.e. TK, LH) if they cancel the route - or do I have to accept the refund?

Someone mentioned on FT that the 14 day rule only applies to compensation, but the airline is still obliged to offer alternative flights...so I'm a little comfused.
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 9:34 am
  #753  
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Originally Posted by headingwest
I'd be most grateful for some general EU261 advice please.

I bought a ticket for September with Aegean LUX-ATH-KWI but they have cancelled the second flight. The route will terminate earlier than originally planned. They are offering a refund but not to reroute (on another airline).

Under EU261 are A3 obliged to offer alternative flights with other carriers (i.e. TK, LH) if they cancel the route - or do I have to accept the refund?

Someone mentioned on FT that the 14 day rule only applies to compensation, but the airline is still obliged to offer alternative flights...so I'm a little comfused.
Where's your BA flight?
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 10:34 am
  #754  
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Originally Posted by adamkenneth
This is now a hypothetical - so apologies for clogging this thread - but it's germane to the above. If (a) I were flying ARN-LHR-HKG (on one ticket) on BA, (b) my flight from ARN to LHR were delayed by 3 hours, but (c) I still made my connection (let's say I'd chosen a 5 hour connect) for the flight to HKG so I did not end up ultimately delayed at HKG, would BA still pay EU 261 comp for the first-leg ARN to LHR delay?
No. There is no relevant delay (delay at final destination).
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 10:37 am
  #755  
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Originally Posted by headingwest
I bought a ticket for September with Aegean LUX-ATH-KWI but they have cancelled the second flight. The route will terminate earlier than originally planned. They are offering a refund but not to reroute (on another airline).

Under EU261 are A3 obliged to offer alternative flights with other carriers (i.e. TK, LH) if they cancel the route - or do I have to accept the refund?
You will get nowhere with insisting that the carrier should rebook you OAL. Accept the refund and book elsewhere.
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 11:07 am
  #756  
 
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Originally Posted by Guy Betsy
Where's your BA flight?
No BA flight, I made that quite clear.

Originally Posted by SK AAR
You will get nowhere with insisting that the carrier should rebook you OAL. Accept the refund and book elsewhere.
Thanks...that's what I thought too!
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 11:40 am
  #757  
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Originally Posted by adamkenneth
This is now a hypothetical - so apologies for clogging this thread - but it's germane to the above. If (a) I were flying ARN-LHR-HKG (on one ticket) on BA, (b) my flight from ARN to LHR were delayed by 3 hours, but (c) I still made my connection (let's say I'd chosen a 5 hour connect) for the flight to HKG so I did not end up ultimately delayed at HKG, would BA still pay EU 261 comp for the first-leg ARN to LHR delay?
Well the point I rather suspect you are trying to make is that if BA/airlines was/were being consistent then they would pay up in this scenario since it's the mirror of the low price compensation in the other direction. I doubt you would be very surprised to learn they don't, and that is clear cut under the Regulation since it's the "last destination" principle that applies there (Article 7.1). Unfortunately that clause doesn't have a "start departure" clause in it.

Now if I was wanting to challenge the airlines' approach on long-to-shorthaul connections, this is precisely one of the key lines of argument I would take in court, along with the general intent of the Regulation. But this appellate court stuff, and I'm not a lawyer.
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 11:50 am
  #758  
 
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Ok, now the dust has settled on my holiday, I've got my 4xEUR600 claim in with BA for our cancelled flight on the 27th.

Now for the noddy question given I've never previously made an EC/261 claim: does this in any way preclude/marginalise a compensation ask to my TA (BA Holidays in this case) for the fact that we basically lost a full day at the hotel? Ordinarily I'd be asking for at least 1/7 of the package cost back (plus a bit more to cover a few other niggles). But are they going to say 'tough' on the basis that they think the statutory compensation is more than enough for losing that day?

thanks
RC
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 11:53 am
  #759  
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Originally Posted by headingwest
.
Under EU261 are A3 obliged to offer alternative flights with other carriers (i.e. TK, LH) if they cancel the route - or do I have to accept the refund?

Someone mentioned on FT that the 14 day rule only applies to compensation, but the airline is still obliged to offer alternative flights...so I'm a little comfused.
Since you're a nice guy (etc), I'll break my usual rule and make a comment on this, hopefully the Mods will overlook this one. The 14 day rule gets Aegean off the compensation requirements, but not off the rebooking principle. If you want to force Aegean to do this, then you can, and under English+Welsh law I'd give you a high chance of recovering the costs. Slovakian consumer law is regrettably not my strong point.

So if you look at the Cancellation article, Art. 5, right up top there is a clear requirement in 5.1.a to offer assistance in Article 8 - that's the rebooking clause. No leeway or get outs offered, the airline is required to do this.

Article 8 I suspect you are familiar with, this gives the "rerouting under comparable conditions" clause. In England+Wales I would instruct Aegean to provide the alternative, this could, of course, be the next Aegean flight to Kuwait whenever that would be, unless they have cancelled the service altogether. So in other words you can't insist on it being an alternative carrier if they are still operating a service to KWI. Having said that, I believe this is a largely untested area, so if A3 offered a flight a week later it would seem not to meet the "comparable" criteria to me, but that may need legal clarification, I don't think the consumer protection in this area has advanced as it has elsewhere. However if A3 refused point blank to rebook at all, then personally I think you are liberty to come up with a cost effective alternative and force A3 to pay for it.
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 11:55 am
  #760  
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Originally Posted by ratechaser
Ok, now the dust has settled on my holiday, I've got my 4xEUR600 claim in with BA for our cancelled flight on the 27th.

Now for the noddy question given I've never previously made an EC/261 claim: does this in any way preclude/marginalise a compensation ask to my TA (BA Holidays in this case) for the fact that we basically lost a full day at the hotel? Ordinarily I'd be asking for at least 1/7 of the package cost back (plus a bit more to cover a few other niggles). But are they going to say 'tough' on the basis that they think the statutory compensation is more than enough for losing that day?

thanks
RC
The two claims are separate.

Last edited by UKtravelbear; Jun 5, 2017 at 12:13 pm
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 12:02 pm
  #761  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Since you're a nice guy (etc), I'll break my usual rule and make a comment on this
Thanks C-W-S, you're a star!

Sorry if anyone's life was adversely affected by me asking a question about EU261 for non-BA flight on this thread - the A3 forum is a little lacking in foot traffic. After all, FT is for helping each other out, isn't it?
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 12:09 pm
  #762  
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Originally Posted by ratechaser
Now for the noddy question given I've never previously made an EC/261 claim: does this in any way preclude/marginalise a compensation ask to my TA (BA Holidays in this case) for the fact that we basically lost a full day at the hotel? Ordinarily I'd be asking for at least 1/7 of the package cost back (plus a bit more to cover a few other niggles). But are they going to say 'tough' on the basis that they think the statutory compensation is more than enough for losing that day?
There are two areas of legislation here, one I know something about (EC261) one that I don't, namely the Package Travel Regulations 1992, which in turn is based on European legislation. Now that will require BA Holidays to fix things that go wrong with your holiday (noisy building works or a beach 40 miles from the "beach hotel" being the classic ones) and it's more in line with general consumer legislation about getting what you paid for. However EC261 explicitly applies to tour operator flights, so it is indeed possible to claim for both components. How viable that is, in terms of the one-seventh aspect, is beyond my level of competence, but the EC261 entitlement is clear, and so, in theory, is compensation under the 1992 legislation too.
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Old Jun 5, 2017, 3:02 pm
  #763  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
Well the point I rather suspect you are trying to make is that if BA/airlines was/were being consistent then they would pay up in this scenario since it's the mirror of the low price compensation in the other direction. I doubt you would be very surprised to learn they don't, and that is clear cut under the Regulation since it's the "last destination" principle that applies there (Article 7.1). Unfortunately that clause doesn't have a "start departure" clause in it.

Now if I was wanting to challenge the airlines' approach on long-to-shorthaul connections, this is precisely one of the key lines of argument I would take in court, along with the general intent of the Regulation. But this appellate court stuff, and I'm not a lawyer.
Indeed - I'm not surprised and that was exactly where I was going! Definitely one that would require a journey through the senior courts, unless BA are scared of a precedent so settle post-MCOL...! I was typing up a response up thread making the exact point you do about the underlying purpose of the regulation.

While we should probably be wary of interpretive arguments in relation to delay (given that the ECJ just implied it in there in any event), someone minded to pursue this to appellate level might also run an argument along the lines that in a short haul to long haul where you arrive late at the intermediate destination but arrive on time at the ultimate destination, the "last destination at which the [late arrival] will delay the passenger's arrival after the scheduled time" is the intermediate destination. The passenger is not delayed at the final destination, so the relevant destination is the intermediate destination. "Last destination" then becomes a limitation (i.e., the last place a passenger was delayed), rather than meaning that assessment is only made against whether a passenger arrives late at the passenger's last destination. This would be supported by use of "last destination" in 7.1, rather than "final destination" (which is used elsewhere in the reg).

But I haven't read all (any) of the relevant case law, know nothing about this compared to the board gurus, so the above may just be total nonsense.
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Old Jun 6, 2017, 1:47 am
  #764  
 
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Originally Posted by adamkenneth
This is now a hypothetical - so apologies for clogging this thread - but it's germane to the above. If (a) I were flying ARN-LHR-HKG (on one ticket) on BA, (b) my flight from ARN to LHR were delayed by 3 hours, but (c) I still made my connection (let's say I'd chosen a 5 hour connect) for the flight to HKG so I did not end up ultimately delayed at HKG, would BA still pay EU 261 comp for the first-leg ARN to LHR delay?
Haha... Most of flights between Australia and Europe and v.v. involve 3-5 hours (sometimes even longer) layover in Asia. And guess what? I don't mind if the first flight is delayed a bit - makes the layover shorter

And (even after reading CWS's and your own follow ups) I think it would be ridiculous if airlines were liable to pay for delay into intermediate point if the final destination was reached on time...
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Old Jun 6, 2017, 1:54 am
  #765  
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While not strictly EU261, but can't find a better place to ask.

I was booked on LHR-BCN last Sunday afternoon. As we all know, all flights were cancelled on Saturday and it was not until Sunday morning that we had any information on the Sunday flights. Given this situation and the fact that I HAD to be in BCN on Sunday evening, I booked an alternative flight to BCN on LH Saturday evening (by which time all airlines were fully booked as were the Eurostar trains) This was actually the last seat on LH and as such came at a cool 800.

What are my options to get reimbursed for either the LH ticket or for my original ticket? The original flight was flown after all (though the morning service was cancelled) and I was a no show.
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