The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Mar 22, 2017, 9:31 am
#331
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Time like that can often be made up for on flights over 4 hours.
It also depends on the reason for the late departing aircraft.
It also depends on the reason for the late departing aircraft.
Mar 22, 2017, 10:48 am
#332
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Bristol
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Club to Economy Downgrade BA0155 LHR-CAI
Hi folks,
I had the misfortune of being downgraded on the aforementioned flight. I was given an £300 prepaid card at the gate.
I booked this as a reward flight and paid 62500 avios and £295.57 for the return journey.
I've read that this means that I have to be recompensed 75% of the avios and taxes paid. This is 46875 avios and £221.68.
I rang BA today about this and spoke to someone from the refund department. He was only prepared to recompense me 21250 avios, which is the difference between business and economy (one way).
Am I right to insist on being paid the correct amount? If so what do you reckon is my next best option?
Thanks for the help!
I had the misfortune of being downgraded on the aforementioned flight. I was given an £300 prepaid card at the gate.
I booked this as a reward flight and paid 62500 avios and £295.57 for the return journey.
I've read that this means that I have to be recompensed 75% of the avios and taxes paid. This is 46875 avios and £221.68.
I rang BA today about this and spoke to someone from the refund department. He was only prepared to recompense me 21250 avios, which is the difference between business and economy (one way).
Am I right to insist on being paid the correct amount? If so what do you reckon is my next best option?
Thanks for the help!
Mar 22, 2017, 10:52 am
#333
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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You mentioned talking to Refunds. Did you specifically mention EC261? And did you sign for anything at the gate, in respect of the card?
Mar 22, 2017, 10:55 am
#334
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it is not 75% of the total cost of the ticket (£ and avis) but 75% of the cost of the sector.
Taxes and fees are not included in the calculation.
Taxes and fees are not included in the calculation.
Mar 22, 2017, 10:56 am
#335
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Mar 22, 2017, 11:51 am
#336
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Thanks, I will do the sums once I get off this flight and can check the details, but on the face of it, and assuming the higher figures are for the return flight, this may be an example of where BA's normal refunds are more generous than EC261.
Mar 22, 2017, 12:12 pm
#337
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Thanks CWS. Looking forward to hearing from you!
Mar 22, 2017, 2:58 pm
#338
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Straight forward LHR-CAI-LHR so easy to proportion the initial cost of the downgraded outbound sector (unlike on multi-leg flights) as being 31250 Avios
At least with avios payent for flight, BA can't arbitrarily price the economy as some high last minute high cost bucket economy fare at same/similar cost to a paid business, resulting in peanuts as the fare difference. In fact that is why EC261 needs to specify 75% of sector cost as airlines were cheating as above.
I can actually see the logic/fairness of BA CR person simply refunding avios difference between J/Y classes, which to me is equitable, but not correct under EC261 guidelines.
If EC261 calc is more generous than BA offered, as appears at first look, then push for EC261 value ?
If 75% downgrade compensation is applied that would be 75% of 31250 = 23427, so 2000 avios more due under EC261 ?
I'd wait for CWS to work it out refund due to you though, as kindly offered in above post.
At least with avios payent for flight, BA can't arbitrarily price the economy as some high last minute high cost bucket economy fare at same/similar cost to a paid business, resulting in peanuts as the fare difference. In fact that is why EC261 needs to specify 75% of sector cost as airlines were cheating as above.
I can actually see the logic/fairness of BA CR person simply refunding avios difference between J/Y classes, which to me is equitable, but not correct under EC261 guidelines.
If EC261 calc is more generous than BA offered, as appears at first look, then push for EC261 value ?
If 75% downgrade compensation is applied that would be 75% of 31250 = 23427, so 2000 avios more due under EC261 ?
I'd wait for CWS to work it out refund due to you though, as kindly offered in above post.
Mar 22, 2017, 3:07 pm
#339
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So the current costs of this are nearly the same as the figure quoted by you, 62500 Avios and £299.85. Genuinely most of this is tax, only £85 is BA carrier charges even in Club World.
What I believe you should receive back is:
Avios: 31,250 Avios (one way CW) x 0.75 = 23,437 Avios (that's the easy bit).
Cash: I'm going to assume the £299 figure rather than the £295 you paid, we will just knock you back a fiver at the end. Of that your tax component is £214, £85 is BA surcharges. By flying one way in WT (WTP would be different), the tax component goes down to £139 (BA surcharge being £71 gives a total of £210). There are several ways to calculate the next step, but the worst figure from your perspective is to say £299-£139 = £160 x 0.75 = £120. A higher, but arguable, figure would be (£71 * 0.75) + (£299-£210) = £142, so that gives you the area we are working in. Then we knock off the fiver. So let's say for argument £115, you could push for an extra £25. There are still harsher figures available, given this takes a charitable view of the fact that this is calculated on a return basis - actually we should reduce it for being a single leg affected.
And BA have offered you £300 and 21250 Avios, a shortfall of 2,187 Avios.
So that was why I asked what you had signed for at LHR when you got the cash card, and it's not clear to me what that was: if it was purely customer remediation then you're slightly down on Avios and BA owe you £115 approx. If - as I rather suspect - the payment was including the EC261 reimbursement component then you owe BA money!
If we say the 2,187 Avios shortfall is worth £35, then BA have given you £150 more than the statutory minimum, which strikes me as a fair outcome. Unless the document you signed in LHR was purely customer remediation - and it said that very clearly - you won't get any further with this, certainly at MCOL level. If you signed nothing then you would still be in a bad place in terms of getting anything more.
The reason for this, incidentally, is that your cash component was relatively low, the taxes a high proportion of it, and the Avios amounts for CW are relatively stiff. All this conspired to mean that BA were more generous than provided for by EC261.
Last edited by corporate-wage-slave; Mar 22, 2017 at 3:12 pm
Mar 22, 2017, 3:10 pm
#340
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At least with avios payent for flight, BA can't arbitrarily price the economy as some high last minute high cost bucket economy fare at same/similar cost to a paid business, resulting in peanuts as the fare difference. In fact that is why EC261 needs to specify 75% of sector cost as airlines were cheating as above.
.
The reimimbrsement was always based on the ticket the person bought and never on the fare difference. EU261 was always clear about that.
Mar 23, 2017, 2:59 am
#341
Join Date: Nov 2012
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I have a theoretical question, something that I mused about while I was on the phone with Opodo. Rules for compensation in case of cancellations change depending on whether you were notified less or more than 14 days before departure.
Let's assume you hold a booking and one flight is cancelled. Let's assume you have been notified of the cancellation more than 14 days by a third party service you are using (MyFlights or CheckMyTrip) and the airline/OTA do not inform you at all.
If you just let it go, then you are informed of the cancellation during check-in and you pursue this in justice. Does a MyFlight notification count as a valid notice more than 14 days prior to departure ? Or will a judge consider that the communication has to come from the OTA/Airline and not from a third party tool monitoring the GDS ?
Let's assume you hold a booking and one flight is cancelled. Let's assume you have been notified of the cancellation more than 14 days by a third party service you are using (MyFlights or CheckMyTrip) and the airline/OTA do not inform you at all.
If you just let it go, then you are informed of the cancellation during check-in and you pursue this in justice. Does a MyFlight notification count as a valid notice more than 14 days prior to departure ? Or will a judge consider that the communication has to come from the OTA/Airline and not from a third party tool monitoring the GDS ?
The Regulation says two things in this area:
- the "inform" piece doesn't say precisely who does the informing, and after all in many cases it would be the travel agent acting on a communication from BA.
- on the other hand in the event of a dispute it is the airline's responsibility to prove that the passenger was informed.
So someone making a claim could say the airline didn't inform us, and then the airline would presumably struggle to give that proof, or will prove that they told the travel agent and they didn't communicate it to the passenger (in which case it is still the airlines' problem).
However I can't say I'm comfortable with this: the intent of the Regulation is to allow you to make an informed decision about what to do well before travel, and though it's clearly the airlines' responsibility to do this, if you find out via another channel then it seems to me to be disingenuous to claim the remedy. Now most people wouldn't use these Apps, and their rights are thereby protected, but if you do find out before travel then typically you are better placed to rearrange your travel accordingly. Now I should clarify this entire paragraph is just my view, a judge may well limit their questions to the details of the previous paragraph.
- the "inform" piece doesn't say precisely who does the informing, and after all in many cases it would be the travel agent acting on a communication from BA.
- on the other hand in the event of a dispute it is the airline's responsibility to prove that the passenger was informed.
So someone making a claim could say the airline didn't inform us, and then the airline would presumably struggle to give that proof, or will prove that they told the travel agent and they didn't communicate it to the passenger (in which case it is still the airlines' problem).
However I can't say I'm comfortable with this: the intent of the Regulation is to allow you to make an informed decision about what to do well before travel, and though it's clearly the airlines' responsibility to do this, if you find out via another channel then it seems to me to be disingenuous to claim the remedy. Now most people wouldn't use these Apps, and their rights are thereby protected, but if you do find out before travel then typically you are better placed to rearrange your travel accordingly. Now I should clarify this entire paragraph is just my view, a judge may well limit their questions to the details of the previous paragraph.
As I said, this is a theoretical question. I am not comfortable with accusations of lowering myself to cheating, as you have no information about what I did or intend to do. I would appreciate apologies.
Thanks to CWS for the detailed answer which goes in the same direction as I thought. This is an interesting loophole.
Anyway I have a booking , travel is in May, one segment is cancelled and I was put on one 2 hours later, marked as Waitlisted on the Amadeus record. I got a MyFlight notification. I let a few working days slides so that the Opodo system catched up and then proceed to rearrange the travel two days ago. To my surprise the MMB part of the Opodo website has no record of the change and list my original booking as Confirmed and OK, with no options.
The German website has a phone number: it let to an infinite loop menu, that ultimately tell me to check my booking online.
I called the 24 hour emergency number which redirect to an indian call center. The agent can see the cancellation and re-booking on the later flight, but inform me this flight is fully booked and thus I have no seat. For him this is the end of story and tough titties for me.
While I waited for someone from the rebooking department to pick up, I mused about the above scenario. I now had spoken to another person in India who told me they applied for a confirmation with the airline and I have to wait 10 days before knowing if I have a seat on the later flight.
We will see but I am not optimist. Officially I am still not informed by Opodo. I usually do not use OTA but this was the only way to get this ticket.
Thanks to CWS for the detailed answer which goes in the same direction as I thought. This is an interesting loophole.
Anyway I have a booking , travel is in May, one segment is cancelled and I was put on one 2 hours later, marked as Waitlisted on the Amadeus record. I got a MyFlight notification. I let a few working days slides so that the Opodo system catched up and then proceed to rearrange the travel two days ago. To my surprise the MMB part of the Opodo website has no record of the change and list my original booking as Confirmed and OK, with no options.
The German website has a phone number: it let to an infinite loop menu, that ultimately tell me to check my booking online.
I called the 24 hour emergency number which redirect to an indian call center. The agent can see the cancellation and re-booking on the later flight, but inform me this flight is fully booked and thus I have no seat. For him this is the end of story and tough titties for me.
While I waited for someone from the rebooking department to pick up, I mused about the above scenario. I now had spoken to another person in India who told me they applied for a confirmation with the airline and I have to wait 10 days before knowing if I have a seat on the later flight.
We will see but I am not optimist. Officially I am still not informed by Opodo. I usually do not use OTA but this was the only way to get this ticket.
This was not painless though and at some point I thought I would have been better off "cheating" and waiting for the day of the flight to get my compensation. It tooks three hours and five phone calls, a couple of threat using EC261 (lack of notifications, rights when cancellation):
1. First refuse to rebook me as they claim the flight was not cancelled
2. Then when cancelled said that the next flight being full, there is nothing they could do and I had to keep my cancelled tickets
3. Then when finally accepting that they had to find a flight, refuse to put me on my first choice despite availability
4. Then finally did it
I am happy this is solved and now I look forward to this trip, but oh boy sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Mar 23, 2017, 10:51 am
#342
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Bristol
Programs: British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 117
Thank you for the comprehensive analysis!
With regard to the £300 prepaid card. I believe it was given to me for customer relations remidiation. The agent at the desk said it was separate to whatever compensation I was to receive. Having said that I did sign for it, without really reading it. Unhelpfully, I've also managed to leave the bit of paper that I signed in the last hotel room that I stayed at. The refund agent that I spoke to on the phone did not mention it once, so I'm crossing my fingers that it was just for customer relations remediation.
Having said that, if I were to pursue the higher compensation, should I just use the customer webform, and quote article 3.1 and 10 of the EU261?
With regard to the £300 prepaid card. I believe it was given to me for customer relations remidiation. The agent at the desk said it was separate to whatever compensation I was to receive. Having said that I did sign for it, without really reading it. Unhelpfully, I've also managed to leave the bit of paper that I signed in the last hotel room that I stayed at. The refund agent that I spoke to on the phone did not mention it once, so I'm crossing my fingers that it was just for customer relations remediation.
Having said that, if I were to pursue the higher compensation, should I just use the customer webform, and quote article 3.1 and 10 of the EU261?
Right, back on terra firma with proper interwebery. I seem to recall it was a full downgrade to WT, not WTP, which makes a difference on taxes. One interesting feature is that CAI is only just over the long distance sector for 75% base reimbursement, had they placed CAI airport on the other side of the city you'd be in the 50% area, since the BA mileage is 2187 miles = 3519 km = 19 km into the 75% bracket.
So the current costs of this are nearly the same as the figure quoted by you, 62500 Avios and £299.85. Genuinely most of this is tax, only £85 is BA carrier charges even in Club World.
What I believe you should receive back is:
Avios: 31,250 Avios (one way CW) x 0.75 = 23,437 Avios (that's the easy bit).
Cash: I'm going to assume the £299 figure rather than the £295 you paid, we will just knock you back a fiver at the end. Of that your tax component is £214, £85 is BA surcharges. By flying one way in WT (WTP would be different), the tax component goes down to £139 (BA surcharge being £71 gives a total of £210). There are several ways to calculate the next step, but the worst figure from your perspective is to say £299-£139 = £160 x 0.75 = £120. A higher, but arguable, figure would be (£71 * 0.75) + (£299-£210) = £142, so that gives you the area we are working in. Then we knock off the fiver. So let's say for argument £115, you could push for an extra £25. There are still harsher figures available, given this takes a charitable view of the fact that this is calculated on a return basis - actually we should reduce it for being a single leg affected.
And BA have offered you £300 and 21250 Avios, a shortfall of 2,187 Avios.
So that was why I asked what you had signed for at LHR when you got the cash card, and it's not clear to me what that was: if it was purely customer remediation then you're slightly down on Avios and BA owe you £115 approx. If - as I rather suspect - the payment was including the EC261 reimbursement component then you owe BA money!
If we say the 2,187 Avios shortfall is worth £35, then BA have given you £150 more than the statutory minimum, which strikes me as a fair outcome. Unless the document you signed in LHR was purely customer remediation - and it said that very clearly - you won't get any further with this, certainly at MCOL level. If you signed nothing then you would still be in a bad place in terms of getting anything more.
The reason for this, incidentally, is that your cash component was relatively low, the taxes a high proportion of it, and the Avios amounts for CW are relatively stiff. All this conspired to mean that BA were more generous than provided for by EC261.
So the current costs of this are nearly the same as the figure quoted by you, 62500 Avios and £299.85. Genuinely most of this is tax, only £85 is BA carrier charges even in Club World.
What I believe you should receive back is:
Avios: 31,250 Avios (one way CW) x 0.75 = 23,437 Avios (that's the easy bit).
Cash: I'm going to assume the £299 figure rather than the £295 you paid, we will just knock you back a fiver at the end. Of that your tax component is £214, £85 is BA surcharges. By flying one way in WT (WTP would be different), the tax component goes down to £139 (BA surcharge being £71 gives a total of £210). There are several ways to calculate the next step, but the worst figure from your perspective is to say £299-£139 = £160 x 0.75 = £120. A higher, but arguable, figure would be (£71 * 0.75) + (£299-£210) = £142, so that gives you the area we are working in. Then we knock off the fiver. So let's say for argument £115, you could push for an extra £25. There are still harsher figures available, given this takes a charitable view of the fact that this is calculated on a return basis - actually we should reduce it for being a single leg affected.
And BA have offered you £300 and 21250 Avios, a shortfall of 2,187 Avios.
So that was why I asked what you had signed for at LHR when you got the cash card, and it's not clear to me what that was: if it was purely customer remediation then you're slightly down on Avios and BA owe you £115 approx. If - as I rather suspect - the payment was including the EC261 reimbursement component then you owe BA money!
If we say the 2,187 Avios shortfall is worth £35, then BA have given you £150 more than the statutory minimum, which strikes me as a fair outcome. Unless the document you signed in LHR was purely customer remediation - and it said that very clearly - you won't get any further with this, certainly at MCOL level. If you signed nothing then you would still be in a bad place in terms of getting anything more.
The reason for this, incidentally, is that your cash component was relatively low, the taxes a high proportion of it, and the Avios amounts for CW are relatively stiff. All this conspired to mean that BA were more generous than provided for by EC261.
Mar 23, 2017, 11:11 am
#343
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,778
Thank you for the comprehensive analysis!
With regard to the £300 prepaid card. I believe it was given to me for customer relations remidiation. The agent at the desk said it was separate to whatever compensation I was to receive. Having said that I did sign for it, without really reading it. Unhelpfully, I've also managed to leave the bit of paper that I signed in the last hotel room that I stayed at. The refund agent that I spoke to on the phone did not mention it once, so I'm crossing my fingers that it was just for customer relations remediation.
Having said that, if I were to pursue the higher compensation, should I just use the customer webform, and quote article 3.1 and 10 of the EU261?
With regard to the £300 prepaid card. I believe it was given to me for customer relations remidiation. The agent at the desk said it was separate to whatever compensation I was to receive. Having said that I did sign for it, without really reading it. Unhelpfully, I've also managed to leave the bit of paper that I signed in the last hotel room that I stayed at. The refund agent that I spoke to on the phone did not mention it once, so I'm crossing my fingers that it was just for customer relations remediation.
Having said that, if I were to pursue the higher compensation, should I just use the customer webform, and quote article 3.1 and 10 of the EU261?
Mar 23, 2017, 6:36 pm
#344
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Bristol
Programs: British Airways Executive Club
Posts: 117
Thanks CWS.
Webform sent.
Also I've just noticed that I've been reimbursed for the lesser amount of avios mentioned, and have not had any cash reimbursement yet.
Will let you know how I get on. Thanks!
Webform sent.
Also I've just noticed that I've been reimbursed for the lesser amount of avios mentioned, and have not had any cash reimbursement yet.
Will let you know how I get on. Thanks!
Mar 23, 2017, 8:23 pm
#345
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Canada / AZ
Programs: BA Blue
Posts: 27
Time for BA response
Jan 27: BA 193 LHR-DFW delayed > 4 hours (cargo hold mechanical fault) so had to re-plane and then had to overnight in Dallas before onward AA flight to TUS next morning. BA paid for hotel + meals.
Jan 28: Claimed E 600
Mar 15: BA offered E600 or 50,000 Avios
^
Jan 28: Claimed E 600
Mar 15: BA offered E600 or 50,000 Avios
^