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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:00 am
  #1711  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Partial liability by BA

My flight was delayed by over 3 hours from LHR to Tel Aviv.
I wrote to BA requesting compensation under the EU law.
They responded saying that they were only liable for 144min of the delay and the remainding time of the delay was due to Air Traffic control regulations.

Does that exempt them from having to pay the EU compensation?
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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:12 am
  #1712  
 
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Yes it does exempt them.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:30 am
  #1713  
 
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Originally Posted by seaskybound View Post
If you have a legal short connection, single PNR, and miss your connection due to a short delay in arrivng flight and end up in final destination late beyond the minima are you due compensation?

if two separate airlines who is responsible?
The last part of your question is easy: No one! The first carrier is not responsible if arriving with a short delay only- it is your own risk if booked on 2 separate tickets.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:35 am
  #1714  
 
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
The last part of your question is easy: No one! The first carrier is not responsible if arriving with a short delay only- it is your own risk if booked on 2 separate tickets.
There is no mention of two tickets, just a single PNR.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:37 am
  #1715  
 
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Originally Posted by strichener View Post
If you need to be close to your original booked schedule then surely option 3 is the best. If a delay of less than 1 hour at your destination causes significant issues then you really should be questioning your overall travel arrangements. I cannot see any reason why you should be due any compensation based on the alternatives available to you.
Surely, the OP will not be allowed to reject option 1 or 3 which would excempt BA from paying compensation, and insist on a rebooking that would make the carrier liable to pay under EC Reg. 261/04. If the OP wish to proceed with option 2 (after option 1 or 3 being offered to him/her) then the right to compensation will be forfeited. It is hardly relevant to BA that the OP prefers to go via LHR if the direct QR service, ARN-DOH is offered to him/her.

Last edited by SK AAR; Nov 28, 17 at 6:47 am
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Old Nov 28, 17, 6:43 am
  #1716  
 
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Originally Posted by strichener View Post
There is no mention of two tickets, just a single PNR.
UPS... Sorry. I misread your Q.

At least for flights to the US involving BA and AA it has been reported in this forum that BA will deny compensation with reference to its own flight being more or less on time (a delay not exceeding 3 hours) - and obviously AA will deny liabiity as well as AA has nothing to do with the delay at final destination/didnt cause it. It think in reality it will be uphill - despite that the law appears to be clear; BA cannot invoke a delay < 3 hours of its incoming flight to the US if the result at final destination is a delay qualifying for comp. under EC Reg. 261/04.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 1:50 pm
  #1717  
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
Yes it does exempt them.
... but only if BA can prove it to be the case.

The onus is on them to do so if pressed.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 2:01 pm
  #1718  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Thanks alot for quick reply.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 2:04 pm
  #1719  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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How could I get accurate flight information on Historic flights.

I am looking for information (arrival time) for the following flights

BA0165 on 09 July 2017 from LHR to TLV
and
LY316 on 6th August 2017 LHR to TLV


Thanks for your help
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Old Nov 28, 17, 2:33 pm
  #1720  
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Originally Posted by skatz View Post
How could I get accurate flight information on Historic flights.
We do have a thread for this: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...formation.html - although we can't always retrieve the information.

Using FlightAware:-
Originally Posted by skatz View Post
BA0165 on 09 July 2017 from LHR to TLV
Scheduled arrival time 1500; actual arrival time 1801.
Originally Posted by skatz View Post
LY316 on 6th August 2017 LHR to TLV
Scheduled arrival time 2330, actual arrival time 0108.
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Old Nov 28, 17, 2:49 pm
  #1721  
 
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thanks
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Old Nov 29, 17, 2:26 pm
  #1722  
 
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Originally Posted by skatz View Post
How could I get accurate flight information on Historic flights.

I am looking for information (arrival time) for the following flights

BA0165 on 09 July 2017 from LHR to TLV
and
LY316 on 6th August 2017 LHR to TLV


Thanks for your help
From Plane Finder playback.

BA165 9 Jul 17 G-ZBKI arr 14.35 CET

LY316 6 Aug 17 4X-ELE arr 22.02 CET

FlightAware is not always accurate.
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Old Nov 30, 17, 10:46 am
  #1723  
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Received notification today from CEDR.
Not unexpectedly, I lost at CEDR for flight cancellation due to MF cabin crew strike.
Reasons given are below. I don't agree with it, especially point 10 which is not true. I also don't understand points 9 and 12, why cancelling 4 days in advance is reasonable grounds for denying EC261 since there is no requirement for this point in the regs other than within 2 weeks. I believe CEDR has ignored most of my evidence and sided strongly with BA. I'm not surprised to be honest.

I hope this helps others.
Tim_T

Decision making principles

● In order to succeed in a claim against the airline, the passenger must prove on a balance of probabilities that they are owed compensation under Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 February 2004 (“Regulation 261”).

● The airline will not have to pay compensation where it can prove that a delay or cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances, which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

● I have carefully considered all of the issues raised and the documents provided. Both the passenger and the airline should be reassured that if I have not referred to a particular issue or document, this does not mean that I have not considered it in reaching my decision.

Reasons for decision

1. The passenger claims compensation pursuant to Article 7 Regulation 261 for the cancellation of the Flight. The airline submits the Flight was cancelled due to extraordinary circumstances and the Flight compensation is therefore not payable.

2. The airline submits the Flight was cancelled on 23 August 2017 due to planned and actual industrial action by its Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew.

3. Recital 14 of Regulation 261 provides “ As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier.”

4. I am mindful of the Civil Aviation Authority’s non-binding list of the types of incident that may qualify as extraordinary circumstances inclusive of industrial relations issues. Industrial relations issues are described as strikes that affect the operation of an air carrier. For example strikes by airport staff, ground handlers, or air traffic control. Given that the CAA is the National Enforcement Body (NEB) for Regulation 261, I find it is reasonable to attach weight to its opinions in this matter.

5. I find in order for the strike action by the airline’s own employees to qualify as an extraordinary circumstance the airline would have to evidence that the industrial action by its Mixed Fleet Cabin crew was not inherent in its normal operating activities and beyond its control.

6. The airline submits that to avoid the strike action it undertook extensive negotiations with the union representing its Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew. The negotiations had been extensive but failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion. There was a union ballot by the airline’s Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew, which came out in favour of strike action.

7. In view of the above, I find that the airline was not directly in control of the industrial action by its Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew nor was the strike action inherent in the normal activity of the airline and qualifies as an extraordinary circumstance.

8. The burden however is on the airline to prove that it took all reasonable measures to avoid the cancellation of the Flight. The airline submits it put in place extensive contingency planning and has 400 volunteer staff trained to operate as full time cabin crew in situations such as cabin crew strikes. The airline contends that despite all of its planning it could not operate all its flights as scheduled on 27 August 2017 and the Flight had to be cancelled.

9. To keep the passenger’s disruption to a minimum the airline cancelled the Flight 4 days in advance. The airline submits this allowed the passenger more re-routing options and an increased chance of departing an arriving closer to his originally scheduled time. The airline initially automatically re-routed the passenger on flights AA5761 Houston Airport (HOU) to Dallas Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), AA80 DFW - LHR and BA1488 LHR - Glasgow Airport (GLA) on 23 August 2017 evidenced by the screenshot of the passenger’s record booking. The passenger contacted the airline and advised the alternative flights were not suitable. The airline submits it discussed other options with the passenger and re-routed the passenger on flight BA288 from Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport (PHX) to LHR to connect to the already booked flight BA1488.

10. Further, the airline submits that prior to and during the strike action plans and processes were put in place to minimise the disruption inclusive of leasing other aircraft and crews from other aircraft operators. The airline submits that tight restrictions by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) govern wet leasing and the airline for example is restricted from only wet leasing from the approved “white list” and can lease from an airline for a maximum 3 consecutive days in any 28 day period. This includes aircraft from within its own group.

11. Additionally the airline submits it made a special effort to encourage Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew to work as usual and offered support and assistance to those who did come to work.

12. I find that cancelling the flight four days in advance reasonable in the circumstances. The airline upon finding out the initial flights the passenger was rebooked on did not meet the passenger’s needs, reasonably rebooked the passenger without delay onto more suitable flights at the passengers request, which caused the least disruption to the passenger.

13. I find the airline has sufficiently evidenced that the cancellation was caused due to extraordinary circumstances and the airline took all reasonable measures in the circumstances. I find the airline is not liable to pay Regulation 261 compensation to the passenger.

Decision

● The passenger’s claim does not succeed.
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Old Dec 1, 17, 9:29 am
  #1724  
 
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Originally Posted by Brookhouse View Post
In praise of BA's very prompt response, my flight from LHR to KUL was delayed by technical reasons on Thursday 23rd Nov and we arrived 4 hour and 2 mins late. I sent a compensation request yesterday - and now less than 24 hours later, they have confirmed they will pay EUR600. Think this is excellent Customer Relations!
Did you place the request using their online form? We did it five days ago for a cancelled flight to LGW from OAK and haven't received a response yet.
Also, do we need to file a new request for each passenger on the reservation or is one request per reservation enough (three passengers)? TIA
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Old Dec 1, 17, 9:53 am
  #1725  
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Originally Posted by MervinJ7 View Post
Did you place the request using their online form? We did it five days ago for a cancelled flight to LGW from OAK and haven't received a response yet.
Also, do we need to file a new request for each passenger on the reservation or is one request per reservation enough (three passengers)? TIA
From past experience, though BA are generally OK to pay a married couple sharing a surname in one claim, overall it's probably best to put in three near-identical claims and cross reference them. Just cut and paste them over and make a copy before you press the Send button.
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