Buy on board: Implemented on BA short haul - opinions on the concept
Jan 30, 17, 2:37 pm - Wikipost
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Nov 22, 20, 8:25 am
#3811
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by hfly
4,5,6 hours without anything is criminal.
Nov 22, 20, 1:49 pm
#3812
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 14,560
What is hyperbole exactly? The block time(s) currently for these routes are currently 4 hours IST, 4:40 for CAI and 5 hours for AMM. In non-covid times these block times are as much as 4hr40, 5hr20 min and 5hrs50 min respectively. Add an hour onto this for the amount of time that one sits on the plane, etc, and you are talking about 5:40, 6:20 and 6:50 respectively, Now the AMM and CAI things are new and they have not actually flown any flights on these routes yet with BoB, so we'll see if it happens, but when you consider that the savant Alex Cruz had even seemingly admitted that they got it wrong on the longer routes I have a feeling that Covid or no Covid, such routes are not going back to strict BoB.
Nov 22, 20, 1:56 pm
#3813
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by hfly
What is hyperbole exactly? The block time(s) currently for these routes are currently 4 hours IST, 4:40 for CAI and 5 hours for AMM. In non-covid times these block times are as much as 4hr40, 5hr20 min and 5hrs50 min respectively. Add an hour onto this for the amount of time that one sits on the plane, etc, and you are talking about 5:40, 6:20 and 6:50 respectively, Now the AMM and CAI things are new and they have not actually flown any flights on these routes yet with BoB, so we'll see if it happens, but when you consider that the savant Alex Cruz had even seemingly admitted that they got it wrong on the longer routes I have a feeling that Covid or no Covid, such routes are not going back to strict BoB.
But criminal? I mean, seriously?!
Nov 22, 20, 1:57 pm
#3814
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Glos
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 7,184
How have LCA flights been in BOB? Surely it’s far longer than IST and not far off CAI. Presumably passengers survived?
Nov 22, 20, 4:21 pm
#3815
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 14,560
Well gee, it is obviously not legally criminal is it? If it were then they would have been charged under criminal statutes by now. Disgusting, cheap, short sighted, and a hundred other things............. whatever, and should be criminal
Mikey, you are right about LCA, however as I suppose that LCA has always been more bucket and spade than IST, and it is about a half hour longer, people have not complained as much.
Mikey, you are right about LCA, however as I suppose that LCA has always been more bucket and spade than IST, and it is about a half hour longer, people have not complained as much.
Nov 22, 20, 4:47 pm
#3816
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Programs: BAEC GGL/CCR, HH Diamond
Posts: 1,708
Don't let your memory be too short-term - we were getting hot meals and a free bar in Y on LCA/IST just over 4 years ago. (And the gorgeous 763s too)
COVID aside it's been a huge product downgrade but the prices were the same
COVID aside it's been a huge product downgrade but the prices were the same
Nov 22, 20, 11:25 pm
#3817
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Programs: TK M&S Elite Plus, QRPC Platinum, BAEC Silver, PC Bolbol, All Silv, HH Blue, Bonvoy, BW Rewards
Posts: 7,747
Originally Posted by hfly
willsnun, I cannot speak about AMM and CAI, then again they have been shorthaul for 30 seconds now. I can speak from personal experience about IST, which prior to them was in fact the longest route with BoB, and which there has NEVER EVER been enough food loaded. I can personally attest that on many such flights BA has sold no more than perhaps 15 sandwiches/buttys, etc, and often no more than 2 or 3? How can I attest to this? Because I have seen with my own eyes them out of everything by the fifth row of ET. Sometimes by the second row of ET. But let's look at CAI and AMM. Let's pretend that they sell 50 sandwiches on each flight, for a whopping 100 sandwiches a day. That is what they sell at a mid sized London location in a few minutes. So no, it makes no difference.
Plus, I don't forget the hyperbolic fact that BA was mostly loading pork sandwiches on this route where there is a significant amount of people in this route who doesn't eat pork due to religious beliefs. They realized this mistake on 2018 or 2019 ( don't recall the exact date ) and started to load more vegetarian sandwiches ( the tomato mozzarella and the mushroom one ).
Originally Posted by ENTP
Don't let your memory be too short-term - we were getting hot meals and a free bar in Y on LCA/IST just over 4 years ago. (And the gorgeous 763s too)
COVID aside it's been a huge product downgrade but the prices were the same
COVID aside it's been a huge product downgrade but the prices were the same
I could not speak of LCA.
Nov 23, 20, 2:49 am
#3818
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by hfly
Well gee, it is obviously not legally criminal is it?
Nov 23, 20, 5:00 am
#3819
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 706
Originally Posted by 13901
That's why I wrote hyperbole.
Nov 23, 20, 5:09 am
#3820
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 14,560
But do you know what could in fact be criminal, but hard to prosecute? Someone knowingly being served water which the airline does not 100% know is safe for consumption, especially if one were to get sick from it. It has already been discussed ad nauseum on these boards and other places why drinking un-boiled water from the "tank" on an airplane is unsafe, in fact until the BoB thing, BA (and almost every airline that I can think of) expressly told passengers NOT to drink such water, They have made all sorts of claims of the tanks being regularly cleaned.............which we all know means every three months at best, and I have yet to meet any air crew member who would drink such water themselves (and before someone says, "They make the tea and coffee with it", the tea and coffee water are boiled).
Nov 23, 20, 5:18 am
#3821
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by adrianlondon
"It's criminal" is a figure of speech.
Nov 23, 20, 6:58 am
#3822
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 706
Originally Posted by 13901
In a normal place
Nov 23, 20, 7:15 am
#3823
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by hfly
But do you know what could in fact be criminal, but hard to prosecute? Someone knowingly being served water which the airline does not 100% know is safe for consumption, especially if one were to get sick from it. It has already been discussed ad nauseum on these boards and other places why drinking un-boiled water from the "tank" on an airplane is unsafe, in fact until the BoB thing, BA (and almost every airline that I can think of) expressly told passengers NOT to drink such water, They have made all sorts of claims of the tanks being regularly cleaned.............which we all know means every three months at best, and I have yet to meet any air crew member who would drink such water themselves (and before someone says, "They make the tea and coffee with it", the tea and coffee water are boiled).
Nov 23, 20, 9:41 am
#3824
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 14,560
I am very happy to hear that the water trucks used at LHR are maintained and cleaned regularly, I expected nothing less. That unfortunately has little or nothing to do with this however. There is much written on this forum and others, but in essence an A320, which for the most part is what we are speaking about here has a 200 lt water tank that services everything, toilet, sink, coffee, tea, etc. Depending on the load and time/distance about 75% of this is reserved for waste and basins. So you are talking about 25% for for "drinking" whether coffee, tea or drinking water. And I am not even going into the fact that at times BA as a "cost saving measure" has been known to have flights go out with half empty tanks. So forgetting hygiene, which I will get into in a moment, we are talking about a maximum of 50lt of drinking water for 180 passengers, and it is always less, for flights up to 6 hours now.
Now speaking about hygiene, yes I believe that BA is able to control the water quality at LHR, and that was not my worry, after all basic tap water in the UK might not taste great, but is generally not dangerous. I do worry about where they fill the tanks as these a/c go all over Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. While it is the policy that they try NOT to fill the tanks when abroad, legally and practically they have no choice but to do so. If the tank is empty at the other end, which does happen, they cannot fly without toilets, etc. They have no 100% foolproof way of vetting the water in these locations, and I have spoken with my share of station managers around the World, and they fill their tanks from their airport suppliers, but other than "assurances" really do not know that the water is good for drinking. So in a place like Athens, or Marrakesh, or Beirut the exact same suppliers fill almost all aircraft from all airlines, but none other than BA claim that it is safe to drink. Then when you look at maintenance the standard schedule for the tanks to be flushed and cleaned is approximately every 3 months. That gives any bacteria an incredibly long time to grow and proliferate in the tanks, and is why no other airline suggests or endorses drinking from the tanks.
Several years ago, as is well known to FT'ers an FT'ers child did a comprehensive survey of US carrier DOMESTIC aircraft and found E.coli bacteria and all sorts of other nasties in something like 15 percent of all aircraft water tanks, again, many of these aircraft never left the continental US, this study was later picked up by serious people and not only verified, but it was found out that the numbers were even worse. So I can only imagine how bad it is with European airlines............although it really does not matter as all of them except BA tell people NOT to drink the tank water!
It is sort of like blankets, as was reported from a BA document on FT many years ago, the internal guidance at BA was to ONLY launder blankets when visibly soiled. Oh yes they repackaged them, they had prison labor to do that, but it is and was possible that the blanket that you break out of the plastic may have been used dozens if not hundreds of times without being washed.
Now speaking about hygiene, yes I believe that BA is able to control the water quality at LHR, and that was not my worry, after all basic tap water in the UK might not taste great, but is generally not dangerous. I do worry about where they fill the tanks as these a/c go all over Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. While it is the policy that they try NOT to fill the tanks when abroad, legally and practically they have no choice but to do so. If the tank is empty at the other end, which does happen, they cannot fly without toilets, etc. They have no 100% foolproof way of vetting the water in these locations, and I have spoken with my share of station managers around the World, and they fill their tanks from their airport suppliers, but other than "assurances" really do not know that the water is good for drinking. So in a place like Athens, or Marrakesh, or Beirut the exact same suppliers fill almost all aircraft from all airlines, but none other than BA claim that it is safe to drink. Then when you look at maintenance the standard schedule for the tanks to be flushed and cleaned is approximately every 3 months. That gives any bacteria an incredibly long time to grow and proliferate in the tanks, and is why no other airline suggests or endorses drinking from the tanks.
Several years ago, as is well known to FT'ers an FT'ers child did a comprehensive survey of US carrier DOMESTIC aircraft and found E.coli bacteria and all sorts of other nasties in something like 15 percent of all aircraft water tanks, again, many of these aircraft never left the continental US, this study was later picked up by serious people and not only verified, but it was found out that the numbers were even worse. So I can only imagine how bad it is with European airlines............although it really does not matter as all of them except BA tell people NOT to drink the tank water!
It is sort of like blankets, as was reported from a BA document on FT many years ago, the internal guidance at BA was to ONLY launder blankets when visibly soiled. Oh yes they repackaged them, they had prison labor to do that, but it is and was possible that the blanket that you break out of the plastic may have been used dozens if not hundreds of times without being washed.
Nov 23, 20, 10:38 am
#3825
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,058
Originally Posted by hfly
I am very happy to hear that the water trucks used at LHR are maintained and cleaned regularly, I expected nothing less. That unfortunately has little or nothing to do with this however. There is much written on this forum and others, but in essence an A320, which for the most part is what we are speaking about here has a 200 lt water tank that services everything, toilet, sink, coffee, tea, etc. Depending on the load and time/distance about 75% of this is reserved for waste and basins. So you are talking about 25% for for "drinking" whether coffee, tea or drinking water. And I am not even going into the fact that at times BA as a "cost saving measure" has been known to have flights go out with half empty tanks. So forgetting hygiene, which I will get into in a moment, we are talking about a maximum of 50lt of drinking water for 180 passengers, and it is always less, for flights up to 6 hours now.
Now speaking about hygiene, yes I believe that BA is able to control the water quality at LHR, and that was not my worry, after all basic tap water in the UK might not taste great, but is generally not dangerous. I do worry about where they fill the tanks as these a/c go all over Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. While it is the policy that they try NOT to fill the tanks when abroad, legally and practically they have no choice but to do so. If the tank is empty at the other end, which does happen, they cannot fly without toilets, etc. They have no 100% foolproof way of vetting the water in these locations, and I have spoken with my share of station managers around the World, and they fill their tanks from their airport suppliers, but other than "assurances" really do not know that the water is good for drinking. So in a place like Athens, or Marrakesh, or Beirut the exact same suppliers fill almost all aircraft from all airlines, but none other than BA claim that it is safe to drink. Then when you look at maintenance the standard schedule for the tanks to be flushed and cleaned is approximately every 3 months. That gives any bacteria an incredibly long time to grow and proliferate in the tanks, and is why no other airline suggests or endorses drinking from the tanks.
Several years ago, as is well known to FT'ers an FT'ers child did a comprehensive survey of US carrier DOMESTIC aircraft and found E.coli bacteria and all sorts of other nasties in something like 15 percent of all aircraft water tanks, again, many of these aircraft never left the continental US, this study was later picked up by serious people and not only verified, but it was found out that the numbers were even worse. So I can only imagine how bad it is with European airlines............although it really does not matter as all of them except BA tell people NOT to drink the tank water!
It is sort of like blankets, as was reported from a BA document on FT many years ago, the internal guidance at BA was to ONLY launder blankets when visibly soiled. Oh yes they repackaged them, they had prison labor to do that, but it is and was possible that the blanket that you break out of the plastic may have been used dozens if not hundreds of times without being washed.
Now speaking about hygiene, yes I believe that BA is able to control the water quality at LHR, and that was not my worry, after all basic tap water in the UK might not taste great, but is generally not dangerous. I do worry about where they fill the tanks as these a/c go all over Europe, Eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. While it is the policy that they try NOT to fill the tanks when abroad, legally and practically they have no choice but to do so. If the tank is empty at the other end, which does happen, they cannot fly without toilets, etc. They have no 100% foolproof way of vetting the water in these locations, and I have spoken with my share of station managers around the World, and they fill their tanks from their airport suppliers, but other than "assurances" really do not know that the water is good for drinking. So in a place like Athens, or Marrakesh, or Beirut the exact same suppliers fill almost all aircraft from all airlines, but none other than BA claim that it is safe to drink. Then when you look at maintenance the standard schedule for the tanks to be flushed and cleaned is approximately every 3 months. That gives any bacteria an incredibly long time to grow and proliferate in the tanks, and is why no other airline suggests or endorses drinking from the tanks.
Several years ago, as is well known to FT'ers an FT'ers child did a comprehensive survey of US carrier DOMESTIC aircraft and found E.coli bacteria and all sorts of other nasties in something like 15 percent of all aircraft water tanks, again, many of these aircraft never left the continental US, this study was later picked up by serious people and not only verified, but it was found out that the numbers were even worse. So I can only imagine how bad it is with European airlines............although it really does not matter as all of them except BA tell people NOT to drink the tank water!
It is sort of like blankets, as was reported from a BA document on FT many years ago, the internal guidance at BA was to ONLY launder blankets when visibly soiled. Oh yes they repackaged them, they had prison labor to do that, but it is and was possible that the blanket that you break out of the plastic may have been used dozens if not hundreds of times without being washed.
Last edited by 13901; Nov 23, 20 at 11:10 am
