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Why can't I find this ba.com fare on ITA Matrix?

Why can't I find this ba.com fare on ITA Matrix?

Old Sep 21, 2016, 7:19 am
  #16  
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Again, thanks all. Flattered this thread is drawing on the expertise that makes this forum rather amazing but, crikey, those fare codes really can be quite byzantine! Excellent explanations.
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Old Sep 21, 2016, 7:36 am
  #17  
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Originally Posted by bazza1603
I am fine, we are a Specialist Partner (Marine and Groups) for BA and had communications regarding selling them. Basically fares are 200 each way to upgrade I believe
Originally Posted by bazza1603
Its the economy fare plus 200 to WTP.
Presumably this depends on route? On the random route that I was looking at earlier (LHR-LAX, I think), the base fare difference was 150 round-trip. However, you'd have to add the additional APD for WT+ (73?) to that to get the actual increase in the total to pay.

Interesting that you can sell something that the BA call centres can't! Now that is Byzantine.
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Old Sep 21, 2016, 8:45 am
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
Presumably this depends on route? On the random route that I was looking at earlier (LHR-LAX, I think), the base fare difference was 150 round-trip. However, you'd have to add the additional APD for WT+ (73?) to that to get the actual increase in the total to pay.

Interesting that you can sell something that the BA call centres can't! Now that is Byzantine.
It took me a lot of researching/testing to get our QC tools to work on these fares.

The 73 sounds like you have hit on an a higher economy fare against a lower WTP rather than the above.
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Old Sep 21, 2016, 8:48 am
  #19  
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73 happens to be exactly the extra APD due going from WT to WT+.
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Old Sep 21, 2016, 9:01 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by KARFA
73 happens to be exactly the extra APD due going from WT to WT+.
Which is comforting, because that's exactly what I meant. You'd add 150 to the base fare but the TFC also go up by 73 because of the APD.

QLX4S4T1 can be used to price LHR-LAX-LHR on 15/22 November 2016. This is a base fare of 360.00 plus 73.00 APD plus 298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of 731.25.

QLX4S4T1/DIF4 has a base fare of 510.00 plus 146.00 APD plus 298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of 954.25.
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Old Sep 21, 2016, 9:15 am
  #21  
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Originally Posted by NoTiersForMe
Again, thanks all. Flattered this thread is drawing on the expertise that makes this forum rather amazing but, crikey, those fare codes really can be quite byzantine! Excellent explanations.
It is an interesting thread. Lots of expertise here. All I can add is that some airlines have "web-only" fares that do not get published externally. Especially Asian airlines I've found. CI for instance sometimes has very cheap business fares on their website that you will never see on Matrix. So it can often pay to look at both Matrix and the airlines website directly.
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Old Sep 24, 2016, 12:46 pm
  #22  
 
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I can find the dual inventory fares on ITA Matrix for some destinations, for example LHR-MCT-LHR out on 8 Feb back on 12 Feb with fare basis OLRC1UK. Now that is properly OLRC1UK/DIF4 as found with Expertflyer (and the fare conditions from the Matrix search describe it as a dual inventory fare) but it was found and priced by Matrix.

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Old Sep 24, 2016, 12:57 pm
  #23  
 
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DIF - TP/Avios earning, other programme earning, rebooking during IRROPS?

The BA DIF fares are new to me, and searching FT didn't get me very far.

So does anyone know what the situation is regarding:

TP/Avios earning - as the seated class (T in my LHR-MCT-LHR example above) or the lower class (O) ?

How will other FF programmes see the booking - T or O ?

If rebooked, will one be treated as if booked in T, or booked in O, and will original inventory be required? In particular I am thinking of the AA K-UP and Y-UP fares that require the upgrade inventory to be available to be rebooked into the same class of travel, otherwise you're back to economy

( https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...r-thd-15.html# )

Overall, is it treated like a T-class booking once booked, or an inferior cheap ticket?
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Old Sep 25, 2016, 3:39 am
  #24  
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Originally Posted by flatlander
I can find the dual inventory fares on ITA Matrix for some destinations, for example LHR-MCT-LHR out on 8 Feb back on 12 Feb with fare basis OLRC1UK. Now that is properly OLRC1UK/DIF4 as found with Expertflyer (and the fare conditions from the Matrix search describe it as a dual inventory fare) but it was found and priced by Matrix.
That's interesting - as far as I can see they are still not shown by ITA on the trans-Atlantic routes.

I suspect that we are seeing an evolving experiment in action.
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Old Sep 25, 2016, 3:57 am
  #25  
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Originally Posted by flatlander
TP/Avios earning - as the seated class (T in my LHR-MCT-LHR example above) or the lower class (O) ?

How will other FF programmes see the booking - T or O ?
These fares are pretty new to all of us! But a guess on this one: it'll be as for T class, as TP earn depends on the booking class of the sector not on the fare paid.

There are plenty of other commonly-used fares which are not always booked into the booking class of the first letter of the fare basis code.

For example, if you buy an ex-EU I class fare, the short-haul sector to London will be booked into J class even though you are in I class on the long-haul. In that situation, the short-haul flight earns as for J class, but the long-haul flight only earns at the lower I class rate.

Also, look at the TP runs which depend heavily on buying an I class fare but booking some sectors into A class for the A class earning.
Originally Posted by flatlander
If rebooked, will one be treated as if booked in T, or booked in O, and will original inventory be required? In particular I am thinking of the AA K-UP and Y-UP fares that require the upgrade inventory to be available to be rebooked into the same class of travel, otherwise you're back to economy
This, I suspect, depends on the permissible booking classes of each fare in question.

In the case of this DIF fare, the booking class provisions are very straightforward - it looks like you are booked into T if T is available, end of story (save for the short-haul exceptions, of course):-
Code:
>$LB1                                                          
001 LONMCT 25SEP16 BA GBP  281.00 OLRC1UK  STAY-SU/12MBK-T     
FARE CLS  EXPLANATION                            BOOK CODES    
--------  ----------------------                 ----------    
OLRC1UK   FARE BY RULE                           T             
                                                               
 BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS                                       
   VIA BA  B     REQUIRED      WITHIN USA                      
   VIA BA  J/Y   REQUIRED      WITHIN UNITED KINGDOM
However, if you look at a similar AA dual inventory fare, you could see something like this:-
Code:
>$LB15                                                         
015 DFWFLL 25SEP16 AA GBP  379.48 NUAHUSP3 STAY---/-- BK-P  N  
FARE CLS  EXPLANATION                            BOOK CODES    
--------  ----------------------                 ----------    
NUAHUSP3  FIRST CLASS SELL-UP OW NON-REF FARES      P/N        
NUAHUSP3  APPLIES FOR ONE WAY FARES                            
NUAHUSP3  FOR ADULT                                            
                                                               
 BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS                                       
   VIA AA  N/P   PERMITTED P   WHEN N AVAILABLE                
   VIA AA  N     REQUIRED                                      
AIUI, during IRROPS when P is not available and you're trying to get somewhere, you could fall down the entire permissible classes ladder until you reach the last (bolded) line and be booked into N class.

Or alternatively, if you look at this (more traditional) K-UP fare, the use of K class when there is no P is even clearer:-
Code:
>$LB38                                                         
038 DFWFLL 25SEP16 AA GBP 1205.08 KA07PNUP STAY---/-- BK-P     
FARE CLS  EXPLANATION                            BOOK CODES    
--------  ----------------------                 ----------    
KA07PNUP  ONE WAY INSTANT PURCHASE FARES            P          
KA07PNUP   ID APPLIES FOR ONE WAY FARES                        
KA07PNUP  FOR ADULT                                            
                                                               
 BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS                                       
   VIA AA  K     PERMITTED     WHEN PRIME NOT OFFERED          
   VIA AA  P     REQUIRED
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Old Sep 25, 2016, 6:55 am
  #26  
 
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Thanks for those examples, I had not previously studied the booking class information in detail - in future I will.

It still doesn't seem entirely clear from the info in the booking class details as to what happens in the case of rebooking. If, for example, a flight is cancelled close to departure (aircraft goes tech or similar) then most airlines will rebook most tickets to another flight in the same cabin in the lowest available booking class. For a close in departure on BA that might result in H availability used for an O booking, for example. So something like "N REQUIRED" is going to apply at booking time, but at IIROPS-time you can be put in any economy seat, N inventory is not required - they'll take one from Y inventory if needed.

So is the general principle that one will be rebooked in the lowest available booking class in the same cabin unless the booking class detail permits a class in a lower cabin, and unless the rebooking is in circumstances where original (ticket) inventory is required such as a cancellation with advance notice or weather-related travel waiver?

Even for the K-UP fare, "K PERMITTED WHEN PRIME NOT OFFERED" - "not offered" meaning never available on this flight (no first cabin) or meaning not available at this moment (P0, PC)? We know the answer for K-UP fares from experience: you go in economy. But how should we interpret the fare rules as written?

Perhaps there are some other conditions published elsewhere for these BA fares, or perhaps BA just has an internal policy they don't publish. Or perhaps they just haven't thought it through yet


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Old Sep 25, 2016, 7:41 am
  #27  
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Whatever the theory of what happens with those AA fares, there's nothing in the BA fare that suggests to me that it's anything other than a T class fare with a fare basis code that makes clear that it's calculated from the starting point of a different and lower O class fare. However, that's just personal supposition from what I've listed above, and from the narrative description in the fare rules that it's a WT+ fare.

In IRROPS, downgrades can happen anyway, particularly if you really need to get somewhere. Airports can do pretty much anything to get you away. So to some extent, I think that the discussion must be theoretical. If you're disrupted when you're on one of these AA fares, presumably you still have a choice between taking an economy seat on another flight to make sure you get away, or waiting until there's another first class seat?
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 8:05 am
  #28  
 
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Hi all,

Apologies, have struggled on make sense of these Dual Inventory Fares!

I found a fare on ITA matrix
- outbound GOT-NYC-LAS (cabin: ET-WTP-Econ) (class: K-T-B)
- return LAS-LHR-DUB (CW-CE) (I-J)

When I called BA to book, they were quoting me 200 more because they couldn't see the outbound fare shown to me by ITA Matrix.

Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".

Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?

Many thanks
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 10:54 am
  #29  
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Originally Posted by woglet86
When I called BA to book, they were quoting me 200 more because they couldn't see the outbound fare shown to me by ITA Matrix.

Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".

Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?
If the fare basis begins with L but the fare books you into T class on the LON-NYC flight, then I think it is almost certainly a DIF.
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Old Feb 17, 2017, 12:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
If the fare basis begins with L but the fare books you into T class on the LON-NYC flight, then I think it is almost certainly a DIF.
Thanks Globaliser.

Should these DIFs be bookable via the call centre? The agent couldn't see this particular fare.

In the past when a similar thing has happened and I've provided the fare basis shown by ITA, the agent has eventually been able to do it, but suggested that they had to "force the system" which meant that it needed to go for "manual payment".

Many thanks
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