Layell

Having never never had the opportunity to fly intra-Europe in Business till now, I must say I'm quite surprised by the approach the European carriers take with the cabin, with the seats being the very same as coach and the "luxury" being the vacant seat in between.

Is there a particular reason all the major players have adopted this? While the in-flight service from what I've read does seem a step up from carriers in the US, I must admit having the same seat found in coach is an unpleasant discovery. For this reason, is business class really not regarded by European travelers as step up as it would be in the states?

gingeola

It allows airlines to be far more flexible with their business/economy configurations to maximise yield.

The market is willing to bear it so why not I suppose.

I agree with you that North American business class is much more comfortable, though isn't it usually full of frequent flyer upgrades? That practice is much less common in Europe.

sharp5flat9

I'll answer your question with a question

Why would you fix your first/business class cabin at n rows when, with identical seats and a flexible divider, you can have your cabin the precise size to match demand ? You can use the same aircraft for an off-peak leisure route and a Friday evening, business-heavy route.

Further, as distinct from the US model, there is no 'tradition' or expectation of elite upgrades to fill the fixed first class cabin.

There was a time when the first fews rows would have had greater legroom, or a 'convertible' seat that would adjust to consume the width of 1.5 seats, but those have disappeared in recent memory.

shefgab

In Europe, the majority of people sitting in Business class pay for it (for whatever reason, mostly on business accounts I guess), whereas in the States it's mostly frequent flyers. As such the airlines wanted to be able to maximise the extra income fro selling a J ticket, so "flexi seating" was introduced. It makes sense on to have a flexible seating concept where you might sell 50 J seats in the morning to Frankfurt, but then the same plane will do a lunchtime trip to Bilbao, with just 8 J seats sold, but plenty of Y seats.
Also bear in mind, the average sector length in the USA is much longer than that in Europe. I think the majority of European flights are less than 3 hours. Despite the differences in comfort, people in Europe are still paying for "an upgrade economy seat", and Americans still generally aren't paying for the domestic "first" seat.

sharp5flat9

And coincidentally, this: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ub-europe.html

Yoshi212

I was on two LH flights that were At least 75% business. I would not pay the premium for the product alone but would do it as part of a intercontinental flight with a connection. Yes you do get luggage, lounge access (variable), more space and some food/drink but I find the price to be quite high in comparison. Also most of the flights within Europe are rather short when compared to the distances domestic flights can travel in the US. Of course there is LHR-IST but those flights still max out at 4 hours vs 6.5 for US domestic.

CPH-Flyer

Sometimes I think the US customer base puts too much emphasis on a wider seat. The seats are indeed wider, but in the latest iteration on AA A320/A319 it does not really buy much extra comfort despite the extra width.
Also US customers seems happy with a service where up to 2.5 hours the service consists of a couple of drinks and a snack basket (read terrible junk food and a few pieces of fruit) and zero lounge access.
Of course it is a matter of preference, and that is often based on what you are more used to.

1010101

A combination of high cost bases and dominant low cost carriers like Easyjet that realised there was a lucrative business travel market to be had if they just increased their service levels a little. The legacy airlines are stuck with costs the LCCs don't have so they have had to cut everything they can from the product to keep their margins intact.

Personally, eating at the airport and flying economy is my preferred approach when flying within Europe. Business class is not justifiable.

boss315

European business class is a rip-off, plain and simple for those who need to feed their egos by sitting up front

CPH-Flyer

And the US domestic "First" class is not exactly that?

I would say it depends a lot on the stage length. But being used to intra Asian premium cabins, both the US and European options are a bit of a drag.

erikhag

A businessclass ticket between Sweden and England cost less now than a economyclass ticket costed 20 years ago!!! How can that be a rip-off?

My salary has almost trippled but I pay less for a businessclas ticket now than I did for a economyclass ticket 20 years ago, not a rip-off to me.

AlwaysFlyStar

I am amazed that this topic comes up so frequently, and often commented on by Americans or those used to North American 'first class'. I am currently sitting in the lounge about to board a Lufthansa flight in business, and let me say, I am much more looking forward to it, than the 'first' class flights I took with American a few weeks ago. Unlike the breakfast bar I was given on the American two hour flight, I will be given a proper meal. I will also have lounge access beforehand, which I didn't with American. I can also be more confident in being looked after by the cabin crew, unlike any American carrier, where they seem to really believe that they are purely there for your safety. To each their own...

dylanks

I'll try to finish my post soon, but basically it's a factor of the following scattered list of thoughts:

• Slot constraints, no ability to add capacity
• Feeder traffic for longhaul flights
• Highly variable number of business class travelers (many are connecting off of long haul flights)
• Different than US carriers which have as many as 10 hub cities now, whereas European carriers have a small number of hubs
• Variable pricing based on time of day (e.g. most likely to be part of a connection) when booking shorthaul, but no impact on longhaul pricing
• Tablets over laptops for some travelers
• Little competition for shorthaul business class
• Mandate that shorthaul must be profitable
• One way and no Saturday night stay business class fares
• BA annual report in 2015 talks about maximizing number of seats where slot constrained
• Vueling offers a better seat than CE, per some

bludnik

Many good points mentioned here, and good suggestion as to the 'why is this happening'. Since this is the action of many independent contenders, and not a group decision; I don't believe that one reason is the sole and only reason. There may be multiple factors influencing this.

However, my best estimate is that it is merely the market reacting to its competitors. For example; BA does not invest in a 2-2 layout on their short haul fleet, because their competition does not. It is as simple as that.


***rant starting***
When competition goes up, prices go down and service offerings go up (generally). We can see this elsewhere as well. On highly competitive routes, you find the newest planes with the newest amentities. On less competitive routes, you find older planes with older amenities. Take for example the route of KLM from AMS to BON. Why do they charge more for this particular route (than comparative routes) and give the less desirable cabin (older IFE, no power)? Because they can. If you compare the 10h flight to Bonaire with the 11h flight to Tokyo, you see that Bonaire is consistently priced at $1100 from Europe, while Tokyo is consistently priced at $700. Why? Because if you want to get to Tokyo from Europe you have a lot of choice in airlines with 1 connection (EK, SK, LH, LX, BA, AF, KL, etc), while to BON there is generally only KLM who offers 1 connection flights...

Benefit of 2-2 layout vs 3-3 layout on narrowbody is described above, but I will repeat. You can attract the premium payers to your services and away from your competition. Downside is that you cannot 'right-size' your fleet for the particular route (LHR-FRA in the morning with 20% J passengers, LHR-LPA with 2% J passengers in the afternoon).

Ziz

Ironic that people paying for a product leads to it being worse .