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WW says BA may purchase 2nd-hand Airbus A380s and Boeing 777-300ERs
- British Airways may purchase five to six 2nd hand Airbus A380s, and separately, Boeing 777-300ERs, says Willie Walsh.
- Iberia could jointly operate A380. Oil price low enough to extend life of A340s at IB. - Won't exercise existing options, too expensive, in a blow to Airbus. Could BA take Malaysia Airlines' spare RR-powered A380s? TG and SQ also have surplus A380s. - WW regrets not taking Boeing 777-300ERs sooner. - WW says BA "very interested" in returning to IKA, Tehran Full report by aviation journal Leeham News has more interesting news including on Boeing 777-300ERs. Walsh gave the example of IAG’s aircraft fleets where he announced that it is looking to lease five to six used Airbus A380 in addition to the ones that British Airways (BA) already have on order. These could be aircraft for BA only use but also for a joint BA and IBERIA operation...So the A380 works extremely well for us and we are prepared to increase our fleet beyond the 12 we are planning to get. We will then do something unusual for BA, we will go for used aircraft and lease them. It shows how BA has changed; we are prepared to adapt to a changing market and to take opportunities that come our way. Another opportunity we also look at is leasing 777-300ERs. We brought the 777-300ER late into our fleet, to late actually. It is a very effective and flexible aircraft. We now see that we could need more and once again we are prepared to lease these. Again something that the old BA would not do. A final example of how we react to changes in the market is the question of the A340-600 in IBERIA’s fleet. These are really good aircraft for IBERIA’s South American destinations. But it is not a great aircraft with fuel at $120 a barrel. At $60 or below it is a very attractive aircraft, so while we might have planned to replace it at a certain time previously we now see no reason to look into changing that aircraft as long as the fuel price stays at the present low levels. - SIA has 5 early-build A380s powered by RR up for disposal. Unlikely to be taken by BA, if this CAPA report is to be believed - fuel performance for SIA is poor among these early builds. TG keen to axe 6 RR-powered A380s (first delivered in 2012). EK earliest A380s also unlikely to interest BA because the early models are also powered by rival Engine Alliance. |
Good news ^
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Interesting!
I head this rumour from some crew on a Christmas flight, but put it down to galley chat as WW had apparently been on the record previously saying 12 A380's would be the limit! Perhaps even BA are noticing the A380 affect which Singapore & Emirates have mentioned - whereby pax go out of their way to try and fly them? Pilot37 |
Won't be surprised if that's just part of re-negotiating the options - with "cheap" second-hand A380s available in the market, and no new orders in quite some time now, Airbus should be willing to re-open discussions on pricing.
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I've noticed some days in the W16 schedule, BA are down to one 777 a day to LAX - a big drop from the daily double A380!
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Mrs Gaxxy always gets excited about the forward upper CW cabin on the a380. I'll take it over a 777 over-wing vibrating dorm!
Edit: I think Mec72 also raises a very valid point! |
A fleet of six aircraft of the same type is not going to have the same cost efficiency as a larger fleet. There are a very limited market for second hand A380s and MH with it's difficulties may not be in a great bargaining position. BA might get a very good deal out of it.
Interesting that WW has stated categorically that the A380 is over priced at the current deal. Airbus don't seem to have covered their costs on the program, I wonder then if the muted extended A380 is not going to happen. |
Originally Posted by mec72
(Post 26036219)
Won't be surprised if that's just part of re-negotiating the options - with "cheap" second-hand A380s available in the market, and no new orders in quite some time now, Airbus should be willing to re-open discussions on pricing.
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Originally Posted by Worcester
(Post 26036230)
Interesting that WW has stated categorically that the A380 is over priced at the current deal. Airbus don't seem to have covered their costs on the program, I wonder then if the muted extended A380 is not going to happen.
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Originally Posted by mec72
(Post 26036219)
Won't be surprised if that's just part of re-negotiating the options - with "cheap" second-hand A380s available in the market, and no new orders in quite some time now, Airbus should be willing to re-open discussions on pricing.
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I always think it's instructive to look at the leasing firms. As far as I am aware, Amedeo is the only lessor to place orders for A380s (20, the first of which is due to be delivered this year), but it cannot find any potential customers. It even has a glossy page on its website peddling them - http://www.amedeo.aero/a380/
Unfortunately for Airbus, the A380 seems like a plane that only makes sense for a handful of airlines - at its current price at least. But BA is obviously a prime candidate with its slot constraints. Would BA lease? I am not sure of IAG's strategy on leasing v buying. |
WW says BA may purchase 2nd-hand Airbus A380s
Why not?
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Originally Posted by mec72
(Post 26036219)
Won't be surprised if that's just part of re-negotiating the options - with "cheap" second-hand A380s available in the market, and no new orders in quite some time now, Airbus should be willing to re-open discussions on pricing.
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Originally Posted by mikeyfly
(Post 26036225)
I've noticed some days in the W16 schedule, BA are down to one 777 a day to LAX - a big drop from the daily double A380!
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Originally Posted by Sixth Freedom
(Post 26036254)
I agree. I cannot really see BA flying second hand!
Aren't most of the Gatters fleet second hand (some ex LHR fleet, some from outside IAG entirely). |
Originally Posted by DYKWIA
(Post 26036242)
Yes, it's been very quiet on that front.
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
(Post 26036278)
Is that the two days at Thanksgiving?
Grabbed them on the 77W Also lots of West Coast F availability around Thanksgiving |
Originally Posted by zeltergiset
(Post 26036259)
I always think it's instructive to look at the leasing firms. As far as I am aware, Amedeo is the only lessor to place orders for A380s (20, the first of which is due to be delivered this year), but it cannot find any potential customers. It even has a glossy page on its website peddling them - http://www.amedeo.aero/a380/
Unfortunately for Airbus, the A380 seems like a plane that only makes sense for a handful of airlines - at its current price at least. But BA is obviously a prime candidate with its slot constraints. Would BA lease? I am not sure of IAG's strategy on leasing v buying. |
That Amedeo a380 looks horrendous. 11 across in Y and even W is 8 across upstairs.
I'd be interested to know more about F & J. |
Originally Posted by Sixth Freedom
(Post 26036254)
I agree. I cannot really see BA flying second hand!
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Here's a mock up of the 3-5-3 economy seating - https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/20...d-of-customer/
Yeesh |
Originally Posted by zeltergiset
(Post 26036322)
Here's a mock up of the 3-5-3 economy seating - https://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/20...d-of-customer/
Yeesh |
Window seat: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCidrkeWYAAMtfM.jpg
The good news is Amedeo hasn't been able to find any customers for it. So I wonder if it might be convinced to drop this horrendous idea, if an airline like BA wants to lease? |
If it's an ex-Malaysian 380 can we please keep the seats?
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Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 26036333)
That is appalling. It is a shame that (some) airlines would sink to such depths to pack as many people possible onto an aircraft.
It was interesting to see from the article that (a) Airbus is not raising the cabin floor to achieve this, as had previously been the plan; and (b) the seats themselves remain nominally 18" wide (compared to the 787's 16.9"). |
Interesting indeed. I do indeed think that the MH A380's would be those that they are looking at. MH is in a mess so will want to get rid of them and BA could get a decent deal.
The original A380's that are around 7-8 years old are not that fuel efficient and BA just will not want them. What I suspect is that this is also tacit pressure on Airbus to negotiate on the A380 price. The order book isn't that great with many airlines cancelling or reducing the orders. BA will know that and therefore will use this to negotiate.. FD. |
Originally Posted by Globaliser
(Post 26036359)
But that is a consequence of what many people want: to fly as cheaply as possible. Why is that "appalling"? Should airlines be acting as the moral guardians of some standard for minimum personal space per passenger, and dictating to passengers that they must pay more money for that privilege?
It was interesting to see from the article that (a) Airbus is not raising the cabin floor to achieve this, as had previously been the plan; and (b) the seats themselves remain nominally 18" wide (compared to the 787's 16.9"). I blame revenue management for terrible seats. If airlines only had values and refused to go down the slippery slope and earn less for a bit more reputation. |
UPDATE: BA in the market for Boeing 777-300ERs too! See original posting
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
(Post 26036359)
But that is a consequence of what many people want: to fly as cheaply as possible. Why is that "appalling"? Should airlines be acting as the moral guardians of some standard for minimum personal space per passenger, and dictating to passengers that they must pay more money for that privilege?
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Originally Posted by Worcester
(Post 26036284)
Aren't most of the Gatters fleet second hand (some ex LHR fleet, some from outside IAG entirely).
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Originally Posted by Sixth Freedom
(Post 26036254)
I agree. I cannot really see BA flying second hand!
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Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 26036398)
What I fail to understand is why people would put themselves through such conditions. Yes, I know it is about affordability vs market conditions, but surely a human being couldn't be comfortable in a 11-across A380?
But there are plenty of people who may do a long-haul trip once a decade. Even if not technically true, it'll feel like a trip of a lifetime for them, each time. Yet it'll also be a trip that they can barely afford, scraping together all the cash that they can. Will they be uncomfortable on board? If they get a cheap fare that enables the trip to take place at all, they won't much care, and certainly not in advance. For them, all long-haul travel is a mystifying ordeal anyway; the important thing is that they get to go where they're going. |
Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 26036398)
Absolutely agree that is a consequence of many people wanting to fly as cheaply as possible. What I fail to understand is why people would put themselves through such conditions. Yes, I know it is about affordability vs market conditions, but surely a human being couldn't be comfortable in a 11-across A380?
And I wonder how many people would still be happy with their cheap fare, if they knew in advance how cramped their seat was going to be... |
Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 26036398)
Absolutely agree that is a consequence of many people wanting to fly as cheaply as possible. What I fail to understand is why people would put themselves through such conditions. Yes, I know it is about affordability vs market conditions, but surely a human being couldn't be comfortable in a 11-across A380?
There is a distinct segment of the market that sees things in these terms but I would argue it is a much smaller portion of the market than many think it is (for instance the big supermarkets have been following the discounters lime Aldi and Lidl like sheep at exactly the same time as the premium market served by the likes of Waitrose or Booths is growing strongly). Whilst it is easier to pitch price as the only thing that people care about, that seems to me to be just a lazy way of thinking which fails to take account of the true complexity of most customers purchasing decisions. |
Great chance for BA to fit some new CW seats if it were to buy MH's A380s, although obviously they wouldn't!
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Originally Posted by Land-of-Miles
(Post 26036509)
I think that the argument that everyone wants something (be it groceries, household goods or flights) as cheaply as possible is overplayed.
There is a distinct segment of the market that sees things in these terms but I would argue it is a much smaller portion of the market than many think it is (for instance the big supermarkets have been following the discounters lime Aldi and Lidl like sheep at exactly the same time as the premium market served by the likes of Waitrose or Booths is growing strongly). Whilst it is easier to pitch price as the only thing that people care about, that seems to me to be just a lazy way of thinking which fails to take account of the true complexity of most customers purchasing decisions. When i chose my flights i look at the price, but i also look at the type of Aircraft operating it and the seating configurations available. I often dont book the cheapest flight, but rather the flight that will offer me the most comfort long haul. |
Originally Posted by Land-of-Miles
(Post 26036509)
I think that the argument that everyone wants something (be it groceries, household goods or flights) as cheaply as possible is overplayed.
There is a distinct segment of the market that sees things in these terms but I would argue it is a much smaller portion of the market than many think it is (for instance the big supermarkets have been following the discounters lime Aldi and Lidl like sheep at exactly the same time as the premium market served by the likes of Waitrose or Booths is growing strongly). Whilst it is easier to pitch price as the only thing that people care about, that seems to me to be just a lazy way of thinking which fails to take account of the true complexity of most customers purchasing decisions. |
I'd imagine if the engines are that inefficient, BA can talk to RR about replacing them or just the fan blades. A lot of airlines sign up with RR for this, as by putting in up to date fan blades, they can increase fuel efficiency by 1% to 2% (depending on how old the original ones are). As you can imagine, 1% improvement is a lot of fuel saved.
T |
Originally Posted by Land-of-Miles
(Post 26036509)
Whilst it is easier to pitch price as the only thing that people care about, that seems to me to be just a lazy way of thinking which fails to take account of the true complexity of most customers purchasing decisions.
I believe that some recent research has revealed that only a feeling of imminent danger can trump it (hence the demise of MH) but most people will suffer 8 hrs in a bad seat to save €100. (Family of 4... Do the math...) None of these people ever visit the BA forum. They hang out on the http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mileage-run-deals-372/ section. :) |
Originally Posted by rossmacd
(Post 26036398)
What I fail to understand is why people would put themselves through such conditions. Yes, I know it is about affordability vs market conditions, but surely a human being couldn't be comfortable in a 11-across A380?
Originally Posted by planestupid
(Post 26036352)
If it's an ex-Malaysian 380 can we please keep the seats?
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