Our EX-EU Horror story
Dec 14, 2015, 1:43 pm
#76
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London, Sth Africa or LAS
Programs: VS Silver, BA Blue - finally; but hotels.com Gold :)
Posts: 1,858
Hello everyone,
To those who don’t know me, My name is Daniel and I run an agency called Propeller Travel that serves a specific niche of very frequent flyers with complex itineraries. I have the honour to have served many of you.
This is my personal EX-EU horror story. Of course, this is different than the passenger perspective but I feel I should share it with you none the less as it is important to me.
One day this November, I find out, just after issuing a ticket for a fellow FT member,that I can quite literally no longer issue BA air tickets. I was inhibited from “plating” on BA,
A few hours later, I received a letter by email accompanied by a letter alleging, among other things that I have been part of “Ticketing Abuse”, “contrary to IATA resolution and IATA ticketing manual” by “ticketing from fictitious points of origin or destination”, done “to gain substantial financial benefit by creating fares that are not within the airlines systems”.
The letter was issued to me by the general manager of the company I was ticketing through who claimed BA insisted on that and that I am exposed to ADM’s, agency debit notices issued by the airline, in the amount of Ł1000’s for every ticket that has dropped last segments in it.
Irrespective of the merits of the letter or action alleged, at least for me and everyone who works for me, this started what has been 6 weeks of on-going hell, especially considering I serve so many BA customers,
My business has went from going quite well to what is literally stand still. This is of course my personal problem and I have been working around the clock to resolve issues,
aiming to offer customers full service which is slowly coming back together though still without the ability to issue BA tickets ourselves.
I am sharing this with you for two reasons.
The first one is because many in the forum have used my services and might have been wondering why we have been slower to respond and honestly not provided good service over the past 6 weeks while we were in “$%!Ł hit the fan” mode. Thankfully we now back to serving air tickets and have even more preferred hotel partners, but without a doubt failed with communicating our inability to serve during the crisis.
The second reason is t if you purchased a ticket from us for an EX-EU, and promised to us on the phone that you are taking the last segment, which was a question I or Sofi asked everyone before selling, please consider the fact that BA has actively threatened to go after myself with charges for the fare difference (which legally, unfortunately, they have the right to as part of the agency agreement)
At the moment, I have lost Ł68,000 over the past 6 weeks trying to cope with the situation. My exposure is shockingly over Ł480,000 if everyone who booked ex-eu’s who came from FT does not take the last segment and BA actually issues ADM on each ticket.
I will be contacting everyone who has tried to purchase from us or received slow and poor response in general during the crisis before the holiday personally to apologies. However, I wanted to issue this letter publicly so that you are aware that BA is now actively seeking damages from agents who issue ex-EU tickets - even if so far the airline has held back from going after individuals who booked on ba.com - and that your actions, if you did book through an agent, may have serious consequences for them.
As I mentioned above, Propeller is now trading again under a new agency agreement and I hope that I can continue to help FT members with their complex flight itineraries going forward.
As always the choice of course is yours, but the pleasure is all ours.
Safe travels
Daniel
To those who don’t know me, My name is Daniel and I run an agency called Propeller Travel that serves a specific niche of very frequent flyers with complex itineraries. I have the honour to have served many of you.
This is my personal EX-EU horror story. Of course, this is different than the passenger perspective but I feel I should share it with you none the less as it is important to me.
One day this November, I find out, just after issuing a ticket for a fellow FT member,that I can quite literally no longer issue BA air tickets. I was inhibited from “plating” on BA,
A few hours later, I received a letter by email accompanied by a letter alleging, among other things that I have been part of “Ticketing Abuse”, “contrary to IATA resolution and IATA ticketing manual” by “ticketing from fictitious points of origin or destination”, done “to gain substantial financial benefit by creating fares that are not within the airlines systems”.
The letter was issued to me by the general manager of the company I was ticketing through who claimed BA insisted on that and that I am exposed to ADM’s, agency debit notices issued by the airline, in the amount of Ł1000’s for every ticket that has dropped last segments in it.
Irrespective of the merits of the letter or action alleged, at least for me and everyone who works for me, this started what has been 6 weeks of on-going hell, especially considering I serve so many BA customers,
My business has went from going quite well to what is literally stand still. This is of course my personal problem and I have been working around the clock to resolve issues,
aiming to offer customers full service which is slowly coming back together though still without the ability to issue BA tickets ourselves.
I am sharing this with you for two reasons.
The first one is because many in the forum have used my services and might have been wondering why we have been slower to respond and honestly not provided good service over the past 6 weeks while we were in “$%!Ł hit the fan” mode. Thankfully we now back to serving air tickets and have even more preferred hotel partners, but without a doubt failed with communicating our inability to serve during the crisis.
The second reason is t if you purchased a ticket from us for an EX-EU, and promised to us on the phone that you are taking the last segment, which was a question I or Sofi asked everyone before selling, please consider the fact that BA has actively threatened to go after myself with charges for the fare difference (which legally, unfortunately, they have the right to as part of the agency agreement)
At the moment, I have lost Ł68,000 over the past 6 weeks trying to cope with the situation. My exposure is shockingly over Ł480,000 if everyone who booked ex-eu’s who came from FT does not take the last segment and BA actually issues ADM on each ticket.
I will be contacting everyone who has tried to purchase from us or received slow and poor response in general during the crisis before the holiday personally to apologies. However, I wanted to issue this letter publicly so that you are aware that BA is now actively seeking damages from agents who issue ex-EU tickets - even if so far the airline has held back from going after individuals who booked on ba.com - and that your actions, if you did book through an agent, may have serious consequences for them.
As I mentioned above, Propeller is now trading again under a new agency agreement and I hope that I can continue to help FT members with their complex flight itineraries going forward.
As always the choice of course is yours, but the pleasure is all ours.
Safe travels
Daniel
I have spoken to you and also booked an ex-EU with you guys (and yes I was asked if I'd fly the final leg, and I confirmed). I also know you helped a lot of flyers on the Viking / Bratwurst-type deals.
I commend the level of service you guys give and for attempting to provide an Agent's service. In a free market and a properly policed playing field this would be encouraged and supported.
Sadly, BA appear to have seen fit to fire a torpedo ...
Noted.
All the best for 2016 and wishing your efforts and enthusiasm are better rewarded.
Dec 14, 2015, 1:44 pm
#77
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
Yes, absolutely- let's be clear about something as if there was any doubt: people in senior-enough positions in BA monitor this forum and do so on a frequent basis, not so that they can work out what brands of champagne we don't like, but so that they can close loopholes and limit loss when required.
It's hardly rocket science and is something that is known about throughout the industry. It smells a bit of a false sense of importance! If this was an obscure glitch you'd have a point, but it's not at all.
Dec 14, 2015, 1:57 pm
#78
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Silver, M&M, HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,223
Dec 14, 2015, 1:59 pm
#79
Join Date: Aug 2015
Programs: EY - Gold, BA - Gold
Posts: 512
I've never liked people skipping the last leg and wouldn't do it myself purely because it's something well known that airlines don't like (for me the saving of travelling ex-eu is a big enough saving alone to justify travelling this way).
It's been mentioned many times before that this abuse was being clamped down on with stories here and there. What has changed has been the blogging aspect and the larger proportion of travellers who are now travelling ex-eu. With the internet, a lot of deals are shared that wouldn't have been so widespread in the past so I don't think so many fiddles/deals can be optimised under the radar anymore. Just reading about tier point runs and how many other people were flying from dublin for example really highlights this point and with more people travelling in this way, of course (all else being equal) there is a larger number of people who may miss the last leg.
It's been mentioned many times before that this abuse was being clamped down on with stories here and there. What has changed has been the blogging aspect and the larger proportion of travellers who are now travelling ex-eu. With the internet, a lot of deals are shared that wouldn't have been so widespread in the past so I don't think so many fiddles/deals can be optimised under the radar anymore. Just reading about tier point runs and how many other people were flying from dublin for example really highlights this point and with more people travelling in this way, of course (all else being equal) there is a larger number of people who may miss the last leg.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:02 pm
#80
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Programs: BA S, VS S, SQ G, HH D, IHG D/A, Marriott G, Radisson G, Hertz PC
Posts: 3,945
What a nightmare for you, Daniel - I really hope things are starting to get back to near normal for you.
As a flyer from the regions I've always completed my trip anyway as the only option back from LHR is BA and I felt that booking a flight with them after dropping a final segment would be just too obvious! Also it means the final 40TP are effectively free if you were considering dropping the segment anyway.
AA certainly have rules about not awarding points on flights to Caribbean destinations that haven't been fully flown...
As a flyer from the regions I've always completed my trip anyway as the only option back from LHR is BA and I felt that booking a flight with them after dropping a final segment would be just too obvious! Also it means the final 40TP are effectively free if you were considering dropping the segment anyway.
AA certainly have rules about not awarding points on flights to Caribbean destinations that haven't been fully flown...
Dec 14, 2015, 2:06 pm
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: MAN and LON
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Posts: 13,770
I don't think Propeller was specifically targeted. There was a thread sometime back, which originated via Raffles, to the effect that BA were clamping down on hidden city pricing:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...eu-sector.html
As I (and others) commented at the time, it was specialist travel agents and corporate travel agents who were in the cross hairs here, via their different sales channel and the long established existence of ADMs. I know that corporate travel agents were also trying to clamp down on ex Dublins (and at least one Online Travel Agent has atttempted to block it too), though of course they have the same problem BA have regarded legitimate customers from Dublin. It's a pity BA didn't give due notice to Daniel that this was going to happen if the apparent "abuse" wasn't ended.
What I take out of this story is that from henceforth when giving advice on indirect routings I will always stress the need to complete the whole trip, and that the traveller needs to work out the checked luggage situation at both ends (for which there are multiple solutions albeit somewhat unattractive in terms of extending travel time), or go HBO. Though direct purchase from AA and BA hasn't so far been affected, I think it's unwise to presume this will continue, particularly as AA certainly has the ability to clamp down on this.
I'm afraid to say that I think you are correct, and I shall be acting differently from now in terms of that advice.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...eu-sector.html
As I (and others) commented at the time, it was specialist travel agents and corporate travel agents who were in the cross hairs here, via their different sales channel and the long established existence of ADMs. I know that corporate travel agents were also trying to clamp down on ex Dublins (and at least one Online Travel Agent has atttempted to block it too), though of course they have the same problem BA have regarded legitimate customers from Dublin. It's a pity BA didn't give due notice to Daniel that this was going to happen if the apparent "abuse" wasn't ended.
What I take out of this story is that from henceforth when giving advice on indirect routings I will always stress the need to complete the whole trip, and that the traveller needs to work out the checked luggage situation at both ends (for which there are multiple solutions albeit somewhat unattractive in terms of extending travel time), or go HBO. Though direct purchase from AA and BA hasn't so far been affected, I think it's unwise to presume this will continue, particularly as AA certainly has the ability to clamp down on this.
I'm afraid to say that I think you are correct, and I shall be acting differently from now in terms of that advice.
It would be interesting to see whether the wholly unreasonable terms (who can honestly guarantee the way those they are reselling to will behave?), aren't actually an attempt by BA to restrict cross EU sales as car makers tried to do some years ago and ended up paying a very heavy price.
I feel very sorry to the OP who seems to have been singled out disgracefully by BA because of the market niche he targeted. There is no way that BA would have done this with Amex, HRG, CW etc.
If I were the OP I would be looking to use the contact database I had built to promote alternative carriers who offer better products at similar to BA ex EU prices.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:06 pm
#83
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: City of Kingston Upon Hull
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 4,940
Dec 14, 2015, 2:07 pm
#84
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
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To reiterate, this only affects those who drop sectors.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:10 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London
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Dec 14, 2015, 2:12 pm
#86
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
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I agree BA wouldn't deny plating to Amex or Carlson-WagonLit. But I know for sure that both companies have had to handle recent hefty ADMs by their corporate clients.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:12 pm
#87
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Posts: 6,338
I've never thrown away any sectors as I don't think it's a particularly wise thing to do, but that's partly due to fear of being ejected from BAEC.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:17 pm
#88
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Posts: 50,262
They don't bother. As others have noted in this thread and BA will likely do if it decides to crack down on consumers, it will simply close down the FF account and zero out status.
Rather than pursuing individual consumers for refared tickets, AA simply shuts down their AA account and they go from EXP to nothing with all of the attendant bells, whistles & lounges gone.
Rather than pursuing individual consumers for refared tickets, AA simply shuts down their AA account and they go from EXP to nothing with all of the attendant bells, whistles & lounges gone.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:19 pm
#89
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: London
Posts: 17,007
They don't bother. As others have noted in this thread and BA will likely do if it decides to crack down on consumers, it will simply close down the FF account and zero out status.
Rather than pursuing individual consumers for refared tickets, AA simply shuts down their AA account and they go from EXP to nothing with all of the attendant bells, whistles & lounges gone.
Rather than pursuing individual consumers for refared tickets, AA simply shuts down their AA account and they go from EXP to nothing with all of the attendant bells, whistles & lounges gone.
Dec 14, 2015, 2:19 pm
#90
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: City of Kingston Upon Hull
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 4,940
It would be interesting to see whether the wholly unreasonable terms (who can honestly guarantee the way those they are reselling to will behave?), aren't actually an attempt by BA to restrict cross EU sales as car makers tried to do some years ago and ended up paying a very heavy price.