BA clamping down on missed final ex-EU sector [?]

Old Jul 24, 15, 10:19 am
  #556  
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Originally Posted by henkybaby View Post
About the only law that doesn't apply is UK law, as the tickets are bought and travel is started from a country in the EU. Or am I wrong ?
The way it works in theory is that individual state law is in sync with EU law accross the EU and should be applied identically and those laws were based on UK law. That is why each state reports determinations to the EU so that they can bully states into compliance.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 10:21 am
  #557  
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Originally Posted by philthegreek View Post
I believe that on any contract you usually specify the country where any legal questions will be resolved and I would expect that BA will make the UK their contractual base. However I am not a lawyer...
The corporation can state what they want in their Ts and Cs but it is for the consumer to bring the case wherever he chooses and the system then to decide. When bought online then it is most likely heard in the country in which the passenger made his booking from ie normally home.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 10:37 am
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Originally Posted by uk1 View Post
The corporation can state what they want in their Ts and Cs but it is for the consumer to bring the case wherever he chooses and the system then to decide. When bought online then it is most likely heard in the country in which the passenger made his booking from ie normally home.
Thanks that is useful information to have
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:10 am
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On jurisdiction/governing law the general position is governed by EU Regulation. A consumer dealing with an airline will be able to sue in the courts of their "home" and while the governing law can be chosen by the parties to the contract, I would expect that BA would find it convenient to select English law as the governing law of the contract. If suing (or being sued) in an English Court, proving a foreign law can be very expensive and will require expert evidence to be given as to the meaning and effect of the foreign law.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:20 am
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If I was skipping the final leg once or even twice a year, I honestly wouldn't be worrying right now. BA aren't going to sue you or close your account.

However, if I was skipping the final leg on a monthly basis, then I'd be more worried.

Remember the original post:

Two people, independently, told me last week that British Airways will begin to take a harder line. Both of these people are very close to the situation.
Very close to the situation = high profile abusers who have probably flown hundreds of times, skipping the final leg every time.

These are the kind of people that BA wants to clamp down on, not the casual traveller who skips a leg once a year after stopping off overnight in London, then changing their plans to fly the next day.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:32 am
  #561  
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Originally Posted by seattle29 View Post
Very close to the situation = high profile abusers who have probably flown hundreds of times, skipping the final leg every time.
Er, no. Nice try though! That is not exactly 'good source' material!
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:41 am
  #562  
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Originally Posted by Davidxg View Post
On jurisdiction/governing law the general position is governed by EU Regulation. A consumer dealing with an airline will be able to sue in the courts of their "home" and while the governing law can be chosen by the parties to the contract, I would expect that BA would find it convenient to select English law as the governing law of the contract. If suing (or being sued) in an English Court, proving a foreign law can be very expensive and will require expert evidence to be given as to the meaning and effect of the foreign law.
I cannot think of a set of circumstances where a UK consumer making a booking on his telephone or computer in the UK can be forced by BA to have his day in court anywhere other than the UK whether BA find it convenient or not. He or BA files the claim, he specifies as an individual that he wishes to have it heard in a court convenient to his home and I am not aware of any wriggle room where BA can avoid it.

Last edited by uk1; Jul 24, 15 at 11:49 am
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:50 am
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I agree there is no wriggle room as regards the venue for any litigation that might arise, but I do think that in terms of the governing law (a different issue to the location of the Court proceedings) a more complex legal regime operates - but in practice I suspect that BA would not even attempt to impose anything other than an English law contract on a customer based in England. If it were to seek to impose some other legal system this might well prove to be ineffective, but in terms of choice of governing law the Regulation does permit and support the choice of the contracting parties.

In practice people based in England should expect (should it come to it) to sue or be sued in an English Court under English Law. I am not suggesting that any other outcome is even close to likely.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 11:59 am
  #564  
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I made npower traipse down to Basingstoke for a nice day a couple of months back in the rain for the day, and they sent their barrister all the way up from Sussex for the day with her pull along case. She wafted in all toffee nosed like and asked the court people where the robing room was. Their face was a picture. And it cost them an arm and a leg. Happy days.

I wish BA would take someone to court so we can put all this behind us!

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Old Jul 24, 15, 12:02 pm
  #565  
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Originally Posted by Davidxg View Post
I realise that I must have ruffled feathers as a new poster here with little relative knowledge of the airline industry in directly challenging far more experienced "experts" and I would not do so on industry practice or what to do if this or that. But, I do know the law, that is my daily bread so I feel entitled to ask those who disagree with me why it is that they do so.
Stick around. You also have much to learn about posters here, many of whom will deliberately not say much about what they do in real life, or from which that can be inferred. Repeatedly saying "I'm an experienced lawyer" doesn't impress very much; there are very many of them here.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 12:51 pm
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Originally Posted by uk1 View Post
I made npower traipse down to Basingstoke for a nice day a couple of months back in the rain for the day, and they sent their barrister all the way up from Sussex for the day with her pull along case. She wafted in all toffee nosed like and asked the court people where the robing room was. Their face was a picture. And it cost them an arm and a leg. Happy days.
Excellent! How NOT to win friends and influence people
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Old Jul 24, 15, 12:56 pm
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Stick around. You also have much to learn about posters here, many of whom will deliberately not say much about what they do in real life, or from which that can be inferred. Repeatedly saying "I'm an experienced lawyer" doesn't impress very much; there are very many of them here.
That isn't the way Davidxg has come across to me, although forums can be funny things and sometimes what we read can be misunderstood, misinterpreted or influenced by our own biases, mine included.

Anyway as a relatively new member shouldn't we be welcoming him and making him feel comfortable? Oh wait, isn't that the role of Ambassadors?
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Old Jul 24, 15, 1:17 pm
  #568  
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Originally Posted by FrancisA View Post
Whilst I applaud your attempt at clarity, would this really reflect the position an airline would want to be in?

Your last paragraph implies that failure to fly A-B will only result in a reprice, whereas in reality under many airlines' current T&Cs it would result in cancellation of the whole ticket.

I thought the LH response to one of the German cases was to offer a fare where the sectors could be flown out of order or not flown at all. Such a fare was priced higher than standard fares to reflect the added flexibility.

Obviously BA could do the same, but that introduces added complexity by creating another fare class, which does little to make the purchasing process clearer for the customer. On the other hand, I doubt many airlines would wish adopt as a standard term the ability to drop sectors and reorder coupons.

If you introduce "cancel or reprice" the ticket, it then becomes unclear who determines which, robbing it of clarity.

In many ways clarity is in the eye of the beholder. Something may be clear because it is very simple, you view through the prism of your expert knowledge or you fail to see the complications and pitfalls.

Don't get me wrong - the quest for clarity is commendable, but not necessary easy to achieve.
And that is the problem with trying to make complex things simple. They aren't. People deride the "fine print" in contracts, but the fact is that the language is there for a reason. When one is forced to simplify for the sake of "clarity" what one person thinks is important may not be to the other person.

Many of the undertakings made in the name of pro-consumerism, are far from that.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 1:19 pm
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Well, it is frustrating and rather disappointing that the other lawyers seem to hold back from a clear, open and transparent discussion of what is wrong with what I say (as opposed to saying B is the case, not A). It is up to people to say as much or as little as they want, but while some might find being cryptic impressive, I don't. Clearly I can infer that the poster who says it is all complicated (and who advises airlines) is a barrister (as a solicitor would not refer to taking a brief, that is what barristers do). It has also become apparent that some posters may have a highly relevant but undeclared role which might explain why they are pushing a particular line in discussion. I am not expecting a formal declaration of interests as it is easy enough to see how some participants could have ulterior motives for their comments. They, in particular I am sure, have the strongest reasons for keeping quiet about who they are in "real life" - and I can see why that anonymity should be respected in return for their participation. It is all a very delicate balance. The forum is, I assume, also routinely monitored by BA (I know they have re-established someone to act as an official link to the forum).

I would hate to think that "confessing" to a professional qualification directly relevant to the subject under discussion is a taboo thing to do - repeating it ad nauseam would of course be tedious (and, one would think, should be unnecessary).

Globaliser - I do appreciate your comment which to me has a hint of a conciliatory note. I am used to rigorous debate and have been trained to have the greatest respect for views which are presented with justification (on a serious topic). There is time for fun too and I do like the sense of fun here.

So, I shall try not to needlessly tread on toes or provoke. I much prefer light to heat but can understand how fog is often the end result.
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Old Jul 24, 15, 3:07 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
May I invite you to consider this judgment of the BGH and in particular the recognition by the BGH of the legitimate interest of the carrier in protecting its fare structure and reconsider whether you are really that sure that German jurisdictions would be so averse to allow contractual provisions that permit re-faring in case of using coupons in the wrong order or failing to use all coupons?
Originally Posted by philthegreek View Post
Before we go too far in holding up Germany as a fine example of European jurisprudence, isn't this the country that allowed Bernie Ecclestone to pay a bribe, oh sorry a fine, to get off a corruption case. Fine upstanding example of judicial judgement that we should all be pleased occurred in Europe.
Well... in this case NickB was responding to another poster citing German law (see post 540), so I would think that referring to a judgement by the highest 'regular' court in Germany would be appropriate...
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