CW "no changes" restriction not stated/paid seat not agreed
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer – wrong. Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA. Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my son’s seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said “unable to continue on line check in.” When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me – I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account. Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair. The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my company’s business elsewhere, I guess they won’t mind that either.:( http://s4.postimg.cc/eul23nezx/BA_BWI.jpg picture share |
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer – wrong. Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA. Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my son’s seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said “unable to continue on line check in.” When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me – I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account. Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair. The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my company’s business elsewhere, I guess they won’t mind that either.:( http://s4.postimg.cc/eul23nezx/BA_BWI.jpg picture share |
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer – wrong.
Please post back on how your court case against BA goes. |
Welcome to FT, haylefarm!
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking.
If so, you need to get a PA who is more attentive to detail. It is not possible to make a booking on ba.com without being shown a page of fare conditions which makes clear that there are no changes and no refunds. FWIW, the receipt you've posted suggests that (if you're booked London-Washington-London) you have an I class fare in one direction and an R class fare in the other direction. If it helps, the R class fare is changeable (for a change fee of £200 plus any fare difference), so that half of the ticket should be changeable even if the I class half of the ticket is not. |
I am not a lawyer....but just doing a booking in CW return for November
On the price quote page , it clearly states Heathrow - Washington Changes No changes permitted. No upgrades permitted If you want to cancel your flight There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes Washington - Heathrow Changes No changes permitted. No upgrades permitted If you want to cancel your flight There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes Not hidden at all. Looks to me that your complaint is with the PA not with BA |
I don't know why BA make it so hard to find T&Cs for tickets once booked. I spent some time the other day chasing down the exact rules for a ticket I need to change.
In terms of BA cancelling the rest of the itinerary if you don't take a flight, I think that's pretty standard airline practice. |
[deleted]
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Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
...Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair...
It seems like you and your PA are both fairly new to booking airline tickets; restrictions are very, very common across the industry. Its annoying but I would strike this one down to experience and for the future - caveat emptor. |
There is nothing to stop you booking a flight from Washington to New York for after you arrive and then taking a flight or train back to Washington
If you do decide to start using another carrier in the future, you would have the same issue with non refundable/non changeable fares ; no other airline is going to act differently in applying fare rules as are applicable to fare purchased |
Originally Posted by RedcardPingle
(Post 23533506)
... and a direct link to the ticket restrictions wouldn't go amiss, but all that info can be found via the manage my booking link.
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Just because you PA "does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly no changes booking" doesn't mean that it wasn't there (I bet it was). You'll have more luck suing your PA than BA.
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
(Post 23533478)
And to underline why your complaint is with your PA, here's a sample of the relevant ba.com booking screen, first in overview, and second with the detail of the fare conditions (although this example has a no changes no refunds fare in both directions):-
[Both images clicky.] The condition & terms are actually very clear on ba.com now, they were put in to this new clear format within the last year. I am sorry, but as a lawyer myself I think reaching for the law when you/you PA are unable to read clear terms on doing a booking is a pretty poor. Your PA will have seen these screens and clicked to accept the terms and conditions. Did you tell your PA specifically that you wanted a flexible ticket? I am not sure on the seat charge, have you actually been charged $45? I thought when you selected a seat and went to pay do you go to a payment screen? I didn't think it just bills the original cc used to make the booking. Anyway, welcome to FT as this is your first post. I hope you reflect on what you post and do perhaps make some positive contributions to the board in the future. |
Originally Posted by SteveF
(Post 23533576)
Just because you PA "does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly no changes booking" doesn't mean that it wasn't there (I bet it was). You'll have more luck suing your PA than BA.
As for the seat selection fee, seat selection is free of charge on BA from 24 hours before departure. Certain categories of passengers are entitled to select a seat for free 48 hours or 7 days before departure, or from the time of booking. Other passengers who value a particular seat may choose to purchase an advance seat reservation but are under no obligation to do so. |
Was you son being on a different booking down to your PA as well?
And why is it always lawyers who seem to have the problem of not reading the T&C? Most of the threads involving people not understanding / reading the T&C seem to involve the legal profession |
Welcome to FT!
I do hope you stick around even though most replies here will not offer you much sympathy in this matter.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Other airlines do not do this.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer – wrong.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my son’s seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said “unable to continue on line check in.” When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me – I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair.
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my company’s business elsewhere, I guess they won’t mind that either.:(
Again, you are the lawyer, not your PA. If you want to be 100% sure of all the terms and conditions, I suggest you book the ticket yourself instead of asking someone else to do so. |
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA. I generally try to be positive when on this forum, but I have to say that I hold lawyers generally responsible for the creation of more and more Ts & Cs, protections, tick boxes and general hassle that makes life more difficult for the rest of us, while they make their fees for going after companies who are trying to do business in good faith. I've been hacking through a Master Services Agreement for 2 days solid now, most of which wouldn't be necessary if the project teams on the ground were just allowed to get on with it rather than having to document the reasons for every decision they make, individually or jointly, just in case they get pulled up on a tiny sub clause somewhere. I reckon that the client ends up paying a good 40% extra for our services for time spent proactively ...-covering.. :mad::mad::mad: (Expletive apparently auto-deleted ;) ) Rant over... Edit... (following c-w-s's welcome. I do agree with the OP that it would be helpful to have the change / refund rules clearly visible on the receipt for future reference, even if just in summary format..) |
I know it is the op's first post but why is the lawyer testing out a legal arguement on this forum rather than in court?
Clearly the OPs PA was at fault. This is why a corporate travel agent is better given they are a specialist in this area. |
Originally Posted by KenJohn
(Post 23533794)
I know it is the op's first post but why is the lawyer testing out a legal arguement on this forum rather than in court?
Clearly the OPs PA was at fault. This is why a corporate travel agent is better given they are a specialist in this area. But rich to blame the PA. S/he was likely doing what they had been told to do - book the OP a flight. If the OP wanted / needed something special it was down to them to tell the PA. Perhaps the PA was following another policy that said don't book changeable flights because of the cost. Have not worked where someone has a corporate TA but when someone phones to book would they ask 'do you need a flexible ticket' or do they just do what the PA did and book a flight from A to B on X and Y dates in Z cabin? |
Blaming one's employees is never good form. If the PA types the wrong address on an envelope to a client, it is still the lawyer's fault. If the PA books something you do not want, it is your fault.
OP says that he will take his business elsewhere. But, I am hard-pressed to think of a carrier between LON and WAS or NYC which does not enforce its t&c's and which does not require that passengers fly all segments in the order issued (or face cancellation of the remaining segments). A bit of practical advice. Even if this ticket could be changed for a fee, OP would owe the fee + fare difference. In CW, that is likely to be substantial. There are cheapish flights from IAD to LGA (15-20 minutes to midtown Manhattan), there are clunky connections to Amtrak and this is an eminently driveable route as well. For the future, it is important to either give your PA explicit instructions or to ask the PA to present you with options. You can trade cost for things such as flexibility if you wish. |
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
(Post 23533869)
Have not worked where someone has a corporate TA but when someone phones to book would they ask 'do you need a flexible ticket' or do they just do what the PA did and book a flight from A to B on X and Y dates in Z cabin?
This is even for routes where the policy is lowest fare only. |
Welcome to Flyertalk haylefarm
Welcome to Flyertalk haylefarm, greetings from the BA board, and though you have not had much sympathy here, I hope you nevertheless continue to participate in this lively forum. Welcome to the forum.
I imagine I've made more online bookings with BA than most (at least one ba.com booking a day, I would have thought) and while I can only go by personal experience, each and every time I have done it, it has been crystal clear as to what the change conditions are. Indeed usually there's a well illuminated box to the right, inviting you to spend a bit more to get a more flexible ticket. It is good to make some screen prints at this stage too, for future reference. In the email you receive after booking, and / or in classic.checkmytrip.com you can hopefully see the fare basis, which you can look up, and of course you can cancel a booking within 24 hours if you made a mistake. Where I have some sympathy is that it would be better if the fare conditions or even fare basis was a bit more transparent in Manage My Booking, but I guess BA feels that is too techie for the average punter. Where I am less sympathetic is that if you were buying a car for this sum of money, I'm sure you'd check the A to Z on all the details, and I'm not sure why an air fare should be any different. Caveat emptor. |
Originally Posted by haylefarm
(Post 23528447)
.......What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer – wrong.
|
In some countries non-changeable business class fares are rare and maybe the PA was used to that and did not pay enough attention to the T&C when she/he was booking the ticket. It is a lesson to be learnt - I'm sure neither the OP nor his/her PA would make that mistake again.
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