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OT - Impact of Crossrail on Heathrow Express

OT - Impact of Crossrail on Heathrow Express

Old Jul 18, 13, 7:42 am
  #1  
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OT - Impact of Crossrail on Heathrow Express

Having seen the recent exchanges on the "Hex now £20?!?" thread got me thinking (a dangerous thing!).

When Crossrail starts running there will be 24 trains an hour running through the central (Whitechapel to Paddington) section, and at least 4 trains an hour between central London and Heathrow Airport, matching what HEX offers.

The route through Canary Wharf, the City and the West End will open in late 2018, with the full route running in 2019. and, although ticket prices are yet to be announced, for all those City/Canary Wharf workers heading over to Heathrow, jumping on a train at Liverpool Street, Moorgate or Canary Wharf and travelling straight to Heathrow with a reduced journey time must appeal (Whitechapel to Heathrow will be 39 minutes versus 49 minutes now by tube/HEX and 68 minutes tube only).

Given that there has been a commitment (well, some politician once said!) that "The line will be integrated into TfL's existing zonal system, all existing ticketing options such as Oyster will apply, and a premium fare above TfL zonal ones will only operate for the extension to Heathrow" I wonder whether the Heathrow premium will undercut HEX and, if so, who will use HEX except those based beside Paddington?
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Old Jul 18, 13, 7:45 am
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My only worry is that if Crossrail is popular then T5 becomes Heathrows 2nd class citizen rather than T4.

That's assuming the plan is still to run Crossrail to Heathrow Central (T2/3) and T4.

I don't think there should be a Heathrow premium on the Heathrow section of the journey, TFL fare zones should be strictly applied considering that as far as TFL are concerned Heathrow is in Z6.

I'm sure even those living near Paddington (or changing to the tube at Paddington) would find Crossrail an acceptable option if it was cheaper.

Would T5 be relegated to a shuttle train between itself and the central terminal if the HEX was dropped due to lack of demand, or are there plans now to serve T5 (as well as or instead of T4).
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Old Jul 18, 13, 8:31 am
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Originally Posted by LondonAndy View Post
Given that there has been a commitment (well, some politician once said!) that "The line will be integrated into TfL's existing zonal system, all existing ticketing options such as Oyster will apply, and a premium fare above TfL zonal ones will only operate for the extension to Heathrow" I wonder whether the Heathrow premium will undercut HEX and, if so, who will use HEX except those based beside Paddington?
Isn't Crossrail simply taking over the Heathrow Connect service, which already has a Heathrow premium but undercuts HEX slightly?
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Old Jul 18, 13, 8:32 am
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The track between Airport Junction (where the HEX leaves the London-Reading line) and the LHR terminal area is owned by BAA

BAA operate HEX

If the Crossrail trains want to use that section of track to access anywhere in the LHR area (T5 or T4) surely it will only be with the agreement of BAA.

One would assume that BAA will not simply allow Crossrail to undercut themselves ?

So as the agreement does already seem to be for 4 Crossrail Heathrow trains an hour PLUS 4 HEX Plus Heathrow Connect, one wonders whether HEX will be more integrated into Crossrail ?

Could they have 8 or more trains an hour through from East London to Paddington (Crossrail) - 4 of which continue as HEX to LHR (for a small premium price perhaps) and the rest stop at all stations

Does anyone know if the current HEX trains could run through Crossrail east towards the city - Are they suitably matched in capacity-terms with the Crossrail trains that are proposed ?

Or perhaps they will switch the current HEX trains and use the Crossrail trains on the HEX service... (similar to the way they switched the Gatwick Express trains so they could run on to Brighton)

It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense to keep the HEX and Connect trains terminating at Paddington after Crossrail opens...
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Old Jul 18, 13, 8:38 am
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http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/arti...srail-services
Heathrow to Paddington (mainline platforms) – May 2018 (when the Crossrail concession takes over the Heathrow Connect service)
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Old Jul 18, 13, 8:48 am
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Originally Posted by Scillybear View Post
The track between Airport Junction (where the HEX leaves the London-Reading line) and the LHR terminal area is owned by BAA

BAA operate HEX
You learn something new every day (btw it's Heathrow Airport Holdings Limited these days, not BAA) - given what you said I had a quick search and there is an interesting (if you're a plane/train spotter ) factsheet here which states: "Heathrow Express Limited is not a conventional TOC (Train Operating Company) as the route is not part of the National Rail network. It owns all of its trains and the track which runs from Heathrow to Airport Junction on the Great Western Main Line. It has the right to share Network Rail’s track infrastructure between Airport Junction and Paddington, running on the main line with its Heathrow Express service and the relief lines with its Heathrow Connect service."
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Old Jul 18, 13, 8:55 am
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That is interesting, but what does that mean ?

Doesn't it mean that from 2018 Crossrail will operate the current (2 tph) services from the Mainline Platforms to T4, whilst HEX continue to operate the 4tph from the Mainline Platforms to T5 ??

Then what happens when the full system opens in 2020 ?

Do the Connect trains increase to 4 tph (using the same trains as now ?) and get sent down the Crossrail tunnel to the east, whilst the 4 HEX tph still go into the mainline platforms at Paddington ?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me - unless they put HEX down the Crossrail tunnel as well... However they achieve it ...
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:03 am
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I didn't think Crossrail was building a new tunnel to Heathrow, simply tying in to the existing track owned by HAL, and Crossrail will replace the Heathrow Connect service.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/arti...k-rail-release
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/arti...in-west-london
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:08 am
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i find it amusing anyone is quoting dates on crossrail services
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:10 am
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Interesting to see National Express shortlisted. Did the government decide to allow National Express to compete for franchises again after they failed with NXEC or is this because TFL decides the winning contract?

Remember the current connect normally terminates at T1/3 although it used to terminate at T4 after T5 opened.

So does anyone know what crossrail will do. Will it not serve T4 and there'll be a shuttle or will it serve T4 as originally planned?

What will the spare platforms at T5 be used for? (They built the terminal with a spare pair of platforms)
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:14 am
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Originally Posted by GK View Post
i find it amusing anyone is quoting dates on crossrail services
I've heard more amusing things - Ken Livingstone (remember him) said in 2007 that services "come into operation over the course of twelve months from 2017" and the current proposal is 2018 so yes, a slippage, but not years.
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:16 am
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Originally Posted by layz View Post
So does anyone know what crossrail will do. Will it not serve T4 and there'll be a shuttle or will it serve T4 as originally planned?

What will the spare platforms at T5 be used for? (They built the terminal with a spare pair of platforms)
Looking at the map it would appear that it is going to T1/2/3 and then T4.
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:32 am
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This seems to be more confusing...

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/arti...illion-funding

According to this the (then) BAA invested in Crossrail to ensure that they got 4 "fast" trains per hour to LHR

These would complement the 4 HEX fast trains an hour (to Paddington Mainline) but replace the Connect trains

That would seem to mean that

1) the current stopping trains to LHR are lost
2) You get 4 T4, T2,3 "Fast" to Paddington Crossrail trains an hour
3) You get 4 T5, T2,3 to Paddington Mainline an hour

The main point is that the OP's concern about who will use the 4 HEX trains from Paddington Mainline once Crossrail opens is totally valid.

Who ? (Only People coming via foot, taxi and mainline train to Paddington)

My prediction is that a lot more of the trains originating at LHR will end up on Crossrail than currently planned...
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Old Jul 18, 13, 9:44 am
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Originally Posted by Scillybear View Post
According to this the (then) BAA invested in Crossrail to ensure that they got 4 "fast" trains per hour to LHR

These would complement the 4 HEX fast trains an hour (to Paddington Mainline) but replace the Connect trains

...
It does not say that the Crossrail trains will be express from Paddington to Heathrow. It states that:

"6. Crossrail services are in addition to the 4 trains per hour non-stop Heathrow Express services which will continue to operate. It will replace the existing Heathrow Connect stopping service that runs from Terminal 4 to London Paddington."
If the service has the same premium as the existing Heathrow Connect, then all that is changing is the service going from 2 per hour to 4 per hour. I would wager that the fare will be priced closer to HEX than the current Heathrow Connect.
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Old Jul 18, 13, 10:00 am
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[QUOTE=[B]nux[/B];21118964]It does not say that the Crossrail trains will be express from Paddington to Heathrow....

True...

But it does say...

In return, Crossrail will guarantee a fast train service four times an hour for the majority of the day.

But I accept that they could still be called "fast" even if they call at all the stations between Heathrow and Paddington.

I still think that 4 HEX trains an hour to Paddinton Mainline will be too many after 2019.

I would bet money (the price of a HEX single at 2019 prices) that the fast trains from Paddington could get routed down Crossrail too or reduced from 4.

I would also bet that the price for everything from LHR is the same. (and it will still be quite high)
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