BA Fleet : New aircraft arrivals and retirements master tracker
Dec 8, 19, 6:54 pm - Wikipost
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Jan 9, 14, 11:48 am
#197
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helvetia
Programs: AS; BA Silver; UA; HH Gold; Sprüngli Connaisseur
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by KARFA
Was just going to post the same link.
I am afraid the 747-8i is a flop since there are hardly any sales. It doesn't matter how technically good it is, and even if it is better than the A380 on some parameters, if you don't sell many then it counts as a flop.
The 8F is a reasonable success and accounts for most of the 747-8 orders, this is partly helped by not having any competition in the very large freighter market since there is no A380F. According to wikipedia there are 119 orders for the 747-8, but over half are for the frieghter. Compare this to the 777 where only around 14% of order are for the freighter.
I am afraid the 747-8i is a flop since there are hardly any sales. It doesn't matter how technically good it is, and even if it is better than the A380 on some parameters, if you don't sell many then it counts as a flop.
The 8F is a reasonable success and accounts for most of the 747-8 orders, this is partly helped by not having any competition in the very large freighter market since there is no A380F. According to wikipedia there are 119 orders for the 747-8, but over half are for the frieghter. Compare this to the 777 where only around 14% of order are for the freighter.
Jan 9, 14, 12:46 pm
#198
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 26,862
Originally Posted by greg5
The 747-8 has sold better than the 757-300 though. It's a tough market these days where you have to sell 1,000 of a model to be a success. But since it's a derivative, I've got to think that if the 747-8 is losing money, it can't be that big a loss. Or with the huge backlog, the loss will work out okay for the books.
Boeing have recently reduced 747 production rate so perhaps the backlog is artificially high. 60 outstanding orders is not much of a backlog. It is also clear how much of a flop the 747-8i has been when you look at how few current 747-400 operators have placed order. As noted above, even LH who bought the most are intending to retire them early.
The 8i is turning out to be a flop and we are seeing the end of 747 passenger operations within the next decade. The 8F is at least selling reasonably well.
EDIT: apologies for taking the thread slightly off topic here btw.
Jan 9, 14, 12:58 pm
#199
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by greg5
The 747-8 has sold better than the 757-300 though. It's a tough market these days where you have to sell 1,000 of a model to be a success. But since it's a derivative, I've got to think that if the 747-8 is losing money, it can't be that big a loss. Or with the huge backlog, the loss will work out okay for the books.
I think that the reason it does not sell from a passenger perspective is that the move is clearly away from 4 engines as they are more fuel thirsty (for cargo that means more weight so its not such a big issue). The A380 I suspect will be the last of the 4 engine airframes (unless someone comes out with a triple decker but not likely in my view). The 777-9X will carry almost the same number of passengers as the 747-400 and there aren't that many routes where you need more at the moment (although China might change that a bit!) LHR will be slot constrained for a while yet so I would expect that to keep the A380 going for a while and I have to say having been on the A380 now it is a much better aircraft than the 747-400 (quieter, better cabin pressure an humidity, better ovens for food etc etc). Also the A380 is a base model and I gather there is a lot of redundancy in the wings so there could be the A380-900 if there is a market for this (but I have a suspicion it will never get built).
FD.
Jan 9, 14, 1:37 pm
#200
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Helvetia
Programs: AS; BA Silver; UA; HH Gold; Sprüngli Connaisseur
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by Flying Doctor
From a Boeing point of view I think that it will be fine as you say, even though I understood that the 747-8i was a pretty fundamental overhaul from the 747-400. I suspect that given it seems to work really well for cargo that is what we will see most of the orders for (and let's not forget, the 747-100 was originally designed to be a cargo plane as at the time it was thought that passenger air travel would be dominated by supersonic travel).
Most of the infrastructure, tooling, etc, for the 747-8 was probably able to be brought over from the previous 747 lines. So, this will have reduced costs significantly.
The Lockheed C-5 ended up winning the competition that the 747 was originally proposed for. The 747 was also proposed as its successor, but the McDonnell-Douglas C-17 ended up getting that honor. Perhaps, it is worth Boeing keeping the line going as a successor to the C-17?
BTW, I seem to remember a 757-300ER. Neither Wikipedia or Boeing.com mention it, but I can find a few hits on Google.
I think that the reason it does not sell from a passenger perspective is that the move is clearly away from 4 engines as they are more fuel thirsty (for cargo that means more weight so its not such a big issue). The A380 I suspect will be the last of the 4 engine airframes (unless someone comes out with a triple decker but not likely in my view). The 777-9X will carry almost the same number of passengers as the 747-400 and there aren't that many routes where you need more at the moment (although China might change that a bit!) LHR will be slot constrained for a while yet so I would expect that to keep the A380 going for a while and I have to say having been on the A380 now it is a much better aircraft than the 747-400 (quieter, better cabin pressure an humidity, better ovens for food etc etc). Also the A380 is a base model and I gather there is a lot of redundancy in the wings so there could be the A380-900 if there is a market for this (but I have a suspicion it will never get built).
FD.
FD.
Jan 11, 14, 11:32 pm
#201
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,608
Originally Posted by Flying Doctor
The A380 I suspect will be the last of the 4 engine airframes
FD.
FD.
G-XLED completed its customer acceptance flight last week - any dates for delivery?
Jan 12, 14, 7:23 am
#206
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,636
Also wondered if there were a couple of delays for new planes or early retirements for others as I note that on airlineroute.net the GRU increase to 10x per week has been put back to September 2014 and that IAD will now only get the A380 4x/week (is this to let it go to JNB 7x/week perhaps.....)
Anyway - seemed a bit odd to me....
FD.
Anyway - seemed a bit odd to me....
FD.
Jan 12, 14, 10:40 am
#209
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lewes
Programs: HiltonH. Gold Starwood Gold BA BLUES! Mucci.
Posts: 4,704
It would make sense if the former BMI fleet did move down to Gatwick.
After all, we are the BA lite cousins.
I was surprised to hear that Gatwick was going to get a fleet of A320s with decent leg room.
I'm not holding my breath.
After all, we are the BA lite cousins.
I was surprised to hear that Gatwick was going to get a fleet of A320s with decent leg room.
I'm not holding my breath.
Jan 12, 14, 11:21 am
#210
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by KARFA
There is an unforeseen early scrapping of a 747 remember so maybe that might cause some of the shifts in equipment you are seeing.
The other thing that is interesting is that the A380 orderbook for Airbus is not that strong and there have been some deferments and cancellations for 2015 with Emirates making up over half the orderbook now. I did wonder if BA would try to take some of the 2015/16 A380s early.... I also wonder given that the A350 isn't coming for a bit if Airbus will do a bit of a deal with BA to take a few more A380's as Airbus will for sure want to have more than EK being the sole airline with future options....
FD.
