The BA Cloud!

Old May 30, 12, 6:50 am
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Globalist View Post
Did not see this one pop up yet.

http://http://www.doobybrain.com/200...ways-terminal/

Globalist
???? Too many http:// perhaps?

http://www.doobybrain.com/2008/01/24...ways-terminal/
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Old May 30, 12, 6:55 am
  #62  
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Originally Posted by T8191 View Post
Probably, been struggling to learn how to include pictures via my ipad and in the end just pasted the link, obviously messed that up too..

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Old May 30, 12, 6:57 am
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Globalist View Post
been struggling to learn how to include pictures via my iPad ...
Me too. Tricky, isn't it!! I nearly gave up in despair at one point, whilst trying to capture the Photobucket link.

Now, after 3 weeks of iPad, I keep trying to swipe the screen on the iMac
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Old May 30, 12, 6:59 am
  #64  
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Thanks to those that have posted about the BA Cloud sculpture...

It is very aptly named, as a cloud is in perpetual state of change...and the moving disks do represent this constant change (albeit a bit too uniform compared to the clouds in the atmosphere)...so is relevant and I have to admit to staring at it a few times when going up or down the escalators at T5

Now if they could only get a sculpture that also changes in size as well as having the disks changing...then they would be on to something!
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Old May 30, 12, 7:01 am
  #65  
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Originally Posted by BotB View Post
Thanks to those that have posted about the BA Cloud sculpture...

It is very aptly named, as a cloud is in perpetual state of change...and the moving disks do represent this constant change (albeit a bit too uniform compared to the clouds in the atmosphere)...so is relevant and I have to admit to staring at it a few times when going up or down the escalators at T5

Now if they could only get a sculpture that also changes in size as well as having the disks changing...then they would be on to something!
Extrapolating your version of reality, the BA Cloud could then generate precipitation selectively, of course, and only on those who designed and/or permitted the convoluted access route to the Lounges [CCR exempt, of course]
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Old May 30, 12, 7:22 am
  #66  
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Originally Posted by T8191 View Post
Extrapolating your version of reality, the BA Cloud could then generate precipitation selectively, of course, and only on those who designed and/or permitted the convoluted access route to the Lounges [CCR exempt, of course]
Sounds like you are not sharing my version of reality T8191?

Actually, like your thought...all they would really need to do is have sections that slide and then little electrical cords running down with a few disks hanging between two vertical lines...these disks could then rotate based on magnetic force changes to indicate precipitation falling from the sky as the cloud grows larger vertically from sections that open on top to allow a 'growth' cell expand upward with the same disks...

Might be best if I stick to describing the weather...
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Old May 30, 12, 7:27 am
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Originally Posted by BotB View Post
Thanks to those that have posted about the BA Cloud sculpture...

It is very aptly named, as a cloud is in perpetual state of change...and the moving disks do represent this constant change (albeit a bit too uniform compared to the clouds in the atmosphere)...so is relevant and I have to admit to staring at it a few times when going up or down the escalators at T5
It doesn't look anything like a cloud to me, but some kind of UFO (and no, don't try and tell me it's a lenticular cloud either!). I do like it, and also stare at the cloud while on the escalators until I do a Mr Bean and find myself parked onto the landing platform of an escalator.

If you want a change structure, maybe BA can get a fog machine?
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Old May 30, 12, 7:27 am
  #68  
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Incidentally, Cloud Leader, I tried to add Cloud Club to my sig block. I find I am space limited, due to the long MUCCI titles awarded by Her PUCCI-ness. I'm not deleting or modifying those - I'm scared of hairbrushes
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Old May 30, 12, 7:32 am
  #69  
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Originally Posted by T8191 View Post
Incidentally, Cloud Leader, I tried to add Cloud Club to my sig block. I find I am space limited, due to the long MUCCI titles awarded by Her PUCCI-ness. I'm not deleting or modifying those - I'm scared of hairbrushes
No problem, you might still put something on your profile page...such as where you can list interests? We'll just call you the hidden T-Cloud.
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Old May 30, 12, 7:53 am
  #70  
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Originally Posted by BotB View Post
No problem, you might still put something on your profile page...such as where you can list interests? We'll just call you the hidden T-Cloud.
Going away to do that now, Sir.
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Old May 30, 12, 8:32 am
  #71  
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Originally Posted by T8191 View Post
Originally Posted by BingBongBoy View Post
How does that compare with orographic lift in UK? Or is just a matter of degree?
Okay, time to come back to this one...

There are a few ways that these infant clouds just starting life could have come into being...however, what is most likely is:

We have a flow of air from bottom left to upper right and this very warm and very moist air (from being heated by both Sun and warm tropical waters) which can hold more moisture and is being fed as much as it can take by the warm ocean...then is effectively almost cloud already...so all it takes is a very small rise in some landscape such as these Islands to cause the already very moist air to become saturated and start forming cloud...I would guess that this is additionally fuelled by the natural convection caused by a late evening time frame...(as the ocean becomes warmer than the land once the Sun is not as strong in the evening and then the breeze starts to blow out towards the water (which would hold the temperature much longer than land) and then rise which then comes back down over the land as cool air to be warmed up again as it moves back out towards the water...This cloud that was created by just moving up over the very small incline of that line of islands then gets additional fuel to grow a bit more and starts to create the next line of clouds that move on to give showers elsewhere later on...You can almost see the process happening as you see the smaller 'line' of barely there smaller white clouds to the right of the line of Islands which are nearly equally spaced distance to the more developed ones further to the upper right...just as waves build and develop so do the clouds!

So this orographic lift is the mechanism to create the cloud here as it is in the UK (so is exactly the same as in the UK, except here the air is much warmer and holds more moisture so forms cloud earlier and without as much forcing of the air upwards as would be needed in the UK (hope that answers your question T8191?) This is then further fuelled by the land breeze that is likely occurring here in this photo which helps the clouds grow bigger as they move towards the upper right side of the photo...(you notice the line of the clouds at both points following the line of Islands here)...

Originally Posted by LondonAndy View Post
Does this count as cloud?

Most certainly! Nice picture...plenty of cloud!

Originally Posted by ColdWalker View Post
I have had dew point explained to me many times. But it has taken 50 years for me to understand it. Got it instantly with your explanation BotB
Thanks! , it will be hard to get my head through any doors today but still...

Originally Posted by T8191 View Post
The clouds in this picture are actually ones to be watching...Some TCU in there and potential for some good turbulence and precipitation...but as with many things all a matter of size! Small aircraft (helicopter, cessna) could be at considerable risk going through this but larger planes such as a 747 would be okay.
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Old May 30, 12, 9:51 am
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Originally Posted by BotB View Post
I'm curious if there are now any additional weather satellites or new technology being used to derive weather images?
Depends what you class as new
Europe's latest satellites are from the early part of the last decade (Meteosat 2nd Gen and Metop) but they're still amongst the most advanced that's out there. We're also hoping to launch another 2nd gen Meteosat next month and another metop on July.
If you're used to the 1st gen then there's a lot of changes - 3 visible channels and 8 thermal. Plus one visible band with higher detail.
The thermal channels can give a lot of information about cloud type and location - as well as extra info on things like the amount of water and ozone in the atmosphere. The visible channels help clarify cloud location and are also useful for detecting cloud phase (water or ice). The image you posted is from the first of the visible channels, roughly corresponding to the color red.

...There are also Polar Orbiting NOAA (1000 Km above Earth) satellites that use visual black and white images to provide weather information...
Has there been developments in this area since?
Our Metop satellites are evolutions of NOAA, they still carry some of the same instruments but also have improved resolution, noise suppression and extra channels for better cloud detection.

Care to take over the podium to discuss satellite weather images and the issues with trying to figure out if the temperature indicated is a thick cloud or a high cloud? Other issues?
Don't mean to put you on the spot! Just curious and wondering if you wish to add to the discussion?
Well my job is more in working with the sensor to ensure it's accurate, but I'm also on the edge of some cloud-related projects (it's an interest to me, particularly to aviation).
With respect to high clouds/thick clouds: It's much easier to discriminate between them now that we have lots of extra thermal channels. The earth's surface contributes some heat at certain wavelengths, so if we expect to see a certain surface temperature but instead measure something much lower then there's a fair chance it's thick cloud. If we measure something in-between then it could well be high thin cloud. There's a lot of simulations run that model what temperature we should see for certain cloud types, and the visible channels help a lot too - the color of clouds is very different to that of ocean/land so during the day they can be used to help check what's cloud and what's not. But right now the biggest problem is multi-layered clouds. If there's a layer of thin-cirrus above a much thicker cumulus layer than quite often we fail to detect one or the other of them.
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Old May 30, 12, 10:17 am
  #73  
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Originally Posted by BotB View Post
So this orographic lift is the mechanism to create the cloud here as it is in the UK (so is exactly the same as in the UK, except here the air is much warmer and holds more moisture so forms cloud earlier and without as much forcing of the air upwards as would be needed in the UK (hope that answers your question T8191?) This is then further fuelled by the land breeze that is likely occurring here in this photo which helps the clouds grow bigger as they move towards the upper right side of the photo...(you notice the line of the clouds at both points following the line of Islands here)
Thanks same basic mechanics, as I understood them. I was just a bit surprised to see it on such a small scale. great explanation, as usual!

Originally Posted by BotB View Post
The clouds in this picture are actually ones to be watching...Some TCU in there and potential for some good turbulence and precipitation...but as with many things all a matter of size! Small aircraft (helicopter, cessna) could be at considerable risk going through this but larger planes such as a 747 would be okay.
A fairly typical late afternoon scenario in the DC outskirts at this time of year, and an almost invariable 'weather warning' on The Weather Channel very reliable and accurate, IME

I assume the thermal lift is generated by the millions of acres of concrete and asphalt in and around DC, which when combined with the moisture from Chesapeake Bay and the larger rivers in the area leads to bumblies having an easy gestation period
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Old May 30, 12, 10:35 am
  #74  
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Originally Posted by simonrp84 View Post
<snip, although of great personal interest!>

With respect to high clouds/thick clouds: It's much easier to discriminate between them now that we have lots of extra thermal channels. The earth's surface contributes some heat at certain wavelengths, so if we expect to see a certain surface temperature but instead measure something much lower then there's a fair chance it's thick cloud. If we measure something in-between then it could well be high thin cloud. There's a lot of simulations run that model what temperature we should see for certain cloud types, and the visible channels help a lot too - the color of clouds is very different to that of ocean/land so during the day they can be used to help check what's cloud and what's not. But right now the biggest problem is multi-layered clouds. If there's a layer of thin-cirrus above a much thicker cumulus layer than quite often we fail to detect one or the other of them.
Wow, great to see this area really develop...would love to hear more about the development of the technology and where this is going next! (will have to hope to catch up with you sometime over a drink or gently coerce you into it here!

I follow you on the ability to use the thermal imaging at select bandwidths to help discern the difference between land/water and cloud, especially in warmer conditions or daylight with visible images...what is the concept used when the Earth's surface is cold such as in Winter or particularly when you have snow on the ground?

(I can remember nearly going mad trying to figure out sometimes if I was looking at snow on the ground or low stratus...especially in valleys in Winter where inversions would often occur! and ground temperatures were quite cold and constantly frozen)

With todays technology...and trying to deal with the multiple layer of cloud issue...have you considered using tephigram plots to provide the potential layers of moisture associated with air masses to help with identifying where multiple layers of cloud may be? (what with the processing times and ability to grab info... it likely has been looked at...but if not...that could help?

I am hoping to talk about satellite imagery regarding not only weather (and how it has helped enormously to progress the science and give data coverage where there are no stations) but also about how it is now being used to provide other environmental parameters which is also very good news, maybe you'll be willing to help me out here when I get into a dry spell of clouds ...Definitely feel free to post away about any aspect of this 'newer' area of technology! I for one would be greatly interested...but of course, I also understand not everyone wishes to discuss work so will leave you alone to come along fro the ride if you wish and correct me if I get things wrong!

Thanks again, very interesting
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Old May 30, 12, 10:53 am
  #75  
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For those not aware, the UK research community has an aircraft that they use to do in flight measurements and is quite fascinating to see what is being done and how it is achieved...

Here is a link to the FAAM site which I hope will be of interest to everyone reading this thread:

http://www.faam.ac.uk/

There are a few others worldwide as well and they do provide excellent insight into areas we can't traditionally get measurements to check the forecast models, satellite images, etc...

Last edited by BotB; May 30, 12 at 10:59 am Reason: Due to copyright needed to remove a section.
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