BA767 OSLO-LHR 4th Jan
Jan 4, 2012, 7:22 pm
#16
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
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so it's natural to be a bit frightened. When you recognise in yourself that it's natural to be frightened of an 'alien activity' so to speak, you may well feel a bit better.There is a fear of flying course that is run at British Airways that you may be interested in: http://flyingwithconfidence.com/
It may well enhance your travel experience by reducing your fear.
Happy travelling. I too used to be scared of flying, although not any more (I didn't do the fear of flying course, though, so I can't give them credit for removing my fear
). I'm sure you too will be able to get over your fear of flying.
Jan 4, 2012, 7:34 pm
#17
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC, SLC, LAX
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I found a youtube clip of the noise here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiM8dF7VUOo
I guess what freaked me out the most was that it started a couple of minutes after takeoff, if it'd been from the beginning it would've felt ok...it almost sounded like the engines had started struggling but I guess I haven't flown on an airbus before, or not that model maybe?
I would listen to music but when i'm scared I feel the need to concentrate on the plane and keep it in the air with my mind, although after take off if, there's no turbulence I do generally calm down and function like a normal person!
I guess what freaked me out the most was that it started a couple of minutes after takeoff, if it'd been from the beginning it would've felt ok...it almost sounded like the engines had started struggling but I guess I haven't flown on an airbus before, or not that model maybe?
I would listen to music but when i'm scared I feel the need to concentrate on the plane and keep it in the air with my mind, although after take off if, there's no turbulence I do generally calm down and function like a normal person!
I'm not sure why it happens but I think it has something to do with the engine being at a certain speed and at a certain throttle level concurrently. Tends to happen, as you said OP, on takeoff at a certain point and then upon landing under approximately the same conditions.
It's uncommon but not abnormal.
Jan 4, 2012, 7:42 pm
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 45
I've heard that before, all aircraft types. It's definitely not the A32X whine.
I'm not sure why it happens but I think it has something to do with the engine being at a certain speed and at a certain throttle level concurrently. Tends to happen, as you said OP, on takeoff at a certain point and then upon landing under approximately the same conditions.
It's uncommon but not abnormal.
I'm not sure why it happens but I think it has something to do with the engine being at a certain speed and at a certain throttle level concurrently. Tends to happen, as you said OP, on takeoff at a certain point and then upon landing under approximately the same conditions.
It's uncommon but not abnormal.
Jan 4, 2012, 7:43 pm
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 45
Don't worry, flying is a somewhat unnatural activity for a human being - we weren't really meant to fly, or we'd have grown our own wings so it's natural to be a bit frightened. When you recognise in yourself that it's natural to be frightened of an 'alien activity' so to speak, you may well feel a bit better.
There is a fear of flying course that is run at British Airways that you may be interested in: http://flyingwithconfidence.com/
It may well enhance your travel experience by reducing your fear.
Happy travelling. I too used to be scared of flying, although not any more (I didn't do the fear of flying course, though, so I can't give them credit for removing my fear ). I'm sure you too will be able to get over your fear of flying.
so it's natural to be a bit frightened. When you recognise in yourself that it's natural to be frightened of an 'alien activity' so to speak, you may well feel a bit better.There is a fear of flying course that is run at British Airways that you may be interested in: http://flyingwithconfidence.com/
It may well enhance your travel experience by reducing your fear.
Happy travelling. I too used to be scared of flying, although not any more (I didn't do the fear of flying course, though, so I can't give them credit for removing my fear
). I'm sure you too will be able to get over your fear of flying.
Jan 4, 2012, 7:54 pm
#20
Join Date: Oct 2003
Programs: BAEC Silver, Junior Jet Club
Posts: 946
Allegra: welcome to the board. Let me allay your fears with one statistic. If you were born on an aircraft and flew constantly, it would take over 2,300 years before any kind of incident that would be classed as a crash, and even then, you would have a greater than evens chance of walking away from it. Flying is not only extremely safe, it is more so every year.
I have inserted in the text as below (breaking it up a bit)
I have inserted in the text as below (breaking it up a bit)
i want to start this post by pointing out that despite flying 4 or 5 times a year, I it absolutely terrifies me every single time but I feel like I just had a particularly terrifying experience (It really made me not want to get back on a plane for a as long as possible!) and wanted to know just how irrational I am being...I chickened out on talking to the pilot when I saw him by baggage reclaim because I figure he'd want to go home but hopefully someone here may be able to help!
Before we started taxiing the captain introduced himself, then the first officer and then said that the first officer would be flying the plane, now, I know you need practice to move from first officer to captain so it's a bit unfair of me but I really prefer that the most experienced person is in charge but I just wish they hadn't told me! Two crew are required on all transport aircraft at a minimum. Each will alternate the flying on each flight, and both are trained to the same standards. There is nothing that only the Captain can do in BA aircraft. They work as a team to pick up on each others' errors and ensure that everything is going smoothly. A new pilot would have undergone in excess of 18 months training and would not fly with passengers until senior training captains are satisfied. There is no practice here.
As we were taxiing he really didn't seem to get a hang of accelerating and we kept slowing and speeding up quite abruptly which made me question they amount he had flown before...again...I know everyone needs to practice but I would prefer I wasn't there for it! Other aircraft at the airport, multiple requests from air traffic, queues - nothing to do with skill.
Anyway, we took off quite smoothly which was nice but about 2 minutes in, a really loud, grating noise came from the engine and lasted about 5 minutes...almost like a chainsaw. I've never heard that before and a lot of the other passengers were looking around, freaked out too! Would anyone know what that sound could've been? Per your YouTube link, this is just reduced power for noise abatement on departure. On some flights with lower loads, this may reverberate through the aircraft temporarily - as with all machines, there are resonant frequencies where engine rotations match the airframe, just like a soundboard or indeed any musical instrument.
We then proceeded to fly through an incredibly unpleasant jet stream, so everyone had to stay seated through the whole thing. So that isn't the pilots fault of course but he did keep extending the amount of time we'd be in it which as a nervous flyer didn't help me so much because every time his time limit ended and he got back on the loudspeaker I had a small heart attack (I tend to assume they're about to yell brace when they come on the loudspeaker (outside of just after take off and just before landing...) I would've much rather he'd just overestimated it and then we could've all been pleasantly surprised! Weather changes...planes can fly through anything safely and can see where to avoid. Welcome to North Atlantic winters.
The landing was equally awful and what made it worse was that the first officer preceded it by saying it wasn't windy Given the weather is known to be dire right now, surely he was just joking... so I thought the landing would be easy. We looped a couple of times at a very bumpy level and then cabin lights got dimmer, cabin crew 10 minutes to landing, cabin crew seats for landing but we weren't getting any closer to landing! We kept slowing, accelerating, turning left, turning right, going up, going down for about 15 minutes and then finally when I really thought we were gone for we emerged through the clouds and I could at least see the ground but he continued with the speeding up, slowing down and the whole plane was banking strongly to each side over and over right up until we landed. Wind is variable and the aircraft must compensate for each gust - furthermore, this demonstrates why pilots rely on gyros rather than their senses, as each onset of power and gust appeared to you to be a much wilder ride than it likely actually was. The cochlear parts of the ear are deceiving you. The circling is a function of the busy airfield at Heathrow, compounded by poor weather - it changes constantly.
i'm here to tell the tale and i'm sure he's a great pilot and the problems were all physical things like wind, so i'm just wondering what was going on really...what was the noise during take off, why were we speeding and slowing so much, swerving etc. and why when he said cabin crew seats for landing it was at least another 10 minutes before we actually landed (and 25 mins after he said 10 mins to landing) as I would've thought by the point of that announcement we've got a landing slot we have to make.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions you might have and sorry for the mammoth post!
Before we started taxiing the captain introduced himself, then the first officer and then said that the first officer would be flying the plane, now, I know you need practice to move from first officer to captain so it's a bit unfair of me but I really prefer that the most experienced person is in charge but I just wish they hadn't told me! Two crew are required on all transport aircraft at a minimum. Each will alternate the flying on each flight, and both are trained to the same standards. There is nothing that only the Captain can do in BA aircraft. They work as a team to pick up on each others' errors and ensure that everything is going smoothly. A new pilot would have undergone in excess of 18 months training and would not fly with passengers until senior training captains are satisfied. There is no practice here.
As we were taxiing he really didn't seem to get a hang of accelerating and we kept slowing and speeding up quite abruptly which made me question they amount he had flown before...again...I know everyone needs to practice but I would prefer I wasn't there for it! Other aircraft at the airport, multiple requests from air traffic, queues - nothing to do with skill.
Anyway, we took off quite smoothly which was nice but about 2 minutes in, a really loud, grating noise came from the engine and lasted about 5 minutes...almost like a chainsaw. I've never heard that before and a lot of the other passengers were looking around, freaked out too! Would anyone know what that sound could've been? Per your YouTube link, this is just reduced power for noise abatement on departure. On some flights with lower loads, this may reverberate through the aircraft temporarily - as with all machines, there are resonant frequencies where engine rotations match the airframe, just like a soundboard or indeed any musical instrument.
We then proceeded to fly through an incredibly unpleasant jet stream, so everyone had to stay seated through the whole thing. So that isn't the pilots fault of course but he did keep extending the amount of time we'd be in it which as a nervous flyer didn't help me so much because every time his time limit ended and he got back on the loudspeaker I had a small heart attack (I tend to assume they're about to yell brace when they come on the loudspeaker (outside of just after take off and just before landing...) I would've much rather he'd just overestimated it and then we could've all been pleasantly surprised! Weather changes...planes can fly through anything safely and can see where to avoid. Welcome to North Atlantic winters.
The landing was equally awful and what made it worse was that the first officer preceded it by saying it wasn't windy Given the weather is known to be dire right now, surely he was just joking... so I thought the landing would be easy. We looped a couple of times at a very bumpy level and then cabin lights got dimmer, cabin crew 10 minutes to landing, cabin crew seats for landing but we weren't getting any closer to landing! We kept slowing, accelerating, turning left, turning right, going up, going down for about 15 minutes and then finally when I really thought we were gone for we emerged through the clouds and I could at least see the ground but he continued with the speeding up, slowing down and the whole plane was banking strongly to each side over and over right up until we landed. Wind is variable and the aircraft must compensate for each gust - furthermore, this demonstrates why pilots rely on gyros rather than their senses, as each onset of power and gust appeared to you to be a much wilder ride than it likely actually was. The cochlear parts of the ear are deceiving you. The circling is a function of the busy airfield at Heathrow, compounded by poor weather - it changes constantly.
i'm here to tell the tale and i'm sure he's a great pilot and the problems were all physical things like wind, so i'm just wondering what was going on really...what was the noise during take off, why were we speeding and slowing so much, swerving etc. and why when he said cabin crew seats for landing it was at least another 10 minutes before we actually landed (and 25 mins after he said 10 mins to landing) as I would've thought by the point of that announcement we've got a landing slot we have to make.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions you might have and sorry for the mammoth post!
Jan 4, 2012, 9:39 pm
#21
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Programs: BA-Gold (dropping to Silver soon); AA & Flying Blue; Top Gear (the Clarkson years); Doctor Who :)
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Don't worry, flying is a somewhat unnatural activity for a human being - we weren't really meant to fly, or we'd have grown our own wings so it's natural to be a bit frightened. When you recognise in yourself that it's natural to be frightened of an 'alien activity' so to speak, you may well feel a bit better.
There is a fear of flying course that is run at British Airways that you may be interested in: http://flyingwithconfidence.com/
It may well enhance your travel experience by reducing your fear.
Happy travelling. I too used to be scared of flying, although not any more (I didn't do the fear of flying course, though, so I can't give them credit for removing my fear ). I'm sure you too will be able to get over your fear of flying.
so it's natural to be a bit frightened. When you recognise in yourself that it's natural to be frightened of an 'alien activity' so to speak, you may well feel a bit better.There is a fear of flying course that is run at British Airways that you may be interested in: http://flyingwithconfidence.com/
It may well enhance your travel experience by reducing your fear.
Happy travelling. I too used to be scared of flying, although not any more (I didn't do the fear of flying course, though, so I can't give them credit for removing my fear
). I'm sure you too will be able to get over your fear of flying.Look at the BA High Life magazine from earlier in 2011 (link below) - a real pilot
that tells you the fear is more common than you may think and he runs some of the "fear" courses - couldn't think of a better name, sorry.http://www.bahighlife.com/News-And-B...the-pilot.html
I luckily do not suffer flying fear - but if anything like some of the fears I do have then it must be truly miserable at times. I admire the OP for sticking at it 4-5 times a year, but I think that frequency warrants a look at the course!
Mrs Gash hates take-off (I have scars in my hand to show from her nails digging in as we start to get airborne) - I love the fact that engineering is so far developed that it is even possible, never mind that it happens thousands of times a day.
1 other comment - the constant circling...welcome to Heathrow. On a fine day with a window seat it is actually a treat - City of London, sky, Thames barrier, sky, another part of City...keeps you entertained
Jan 5, 2012, 1:05 am
#22
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London
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And to get technical re the whine / chainsaw sound - when the engine is operating at higher thrust settings (e.g. when climbing), the tips of the fan blades move at supersonic speeds and the associated shock waves cause the characteristic grinding sound. All absolutely normal.
Jan 5, 2012, 1:56 am
#23
Join Date: Mar 2007
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If the sound is similar to an electric drill, then it's the wing flaps and slats being extended and retracted.
On a personal note, I rarely fly up-front, but this week I was further forward, presumably due to lower J loads, at row 7 on an A321. The engine sound is markedly different from up there: you hear much less jet "whoosh" and much more turbine whine. And when the engines are spooled back after the initial take-off, it goes almost silent. Most disconcerting, even when you fly quite a bit
On a personal note, I rarely fly up-front, but this week I was further forward, presumably due to lower J loads, at row 7 on an A321. The engine sound is markedly different from up there: you hear much less jet "whoosh" and much more turbine whine. And when the engines are spooled back after the initial take-off, it goes almost silent. Most disconcerting, even when you fly quite a bit
Jan 5, 2012, 2:52 am
#24
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I found a youtube clip of the noise here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiM8dF7VUOo
I guess what freaked me out the most was that it started a couple of minutes after takeoff, if it'd been from the beginning it would've felt ok...it almost sounded like the engines had started struggling but I guess I haven't flown on an airbus before, or not that model maybe?
I would listen to music but when i'm scared I feel the need to concentrate on the plane and keep it in the air with my mind, although after take off if, there's no turbulence I do generally calm down and function like a normal person!
I guess what freaked me out the most was that it started a couple of minutes after takeoff, if it'd been from the beginning it would've felt ok...it almost sounded like the engines had started struggling but I guess I haven't flown on an airbus before, or not that model maybe?
I would listen to music but when i'm scared I feel the need to concentrate on the plane and keep it in the air with my mind, although after take off if, there's no turbulence I do generally calm down and function like a normal person!
It is simply just an "unfortunate" power/rpm setting that creates a certain uncomfortable resonance. It has just a negative effect on passengers comfort but is no technical issue.
(same will happen to your car´s engine at a certain rpm - just try it out ...)
You may hear the sound of the PTU only in Airbus "narrow body aircraft" (A 318/319/320/321) and mostly after engine shut down when no more hydraulic pressure is maintained (pressure of the 2 independent circuits may get out of balance then...) and in few cases during gear retraction/extension or flaps retraction/extension. But never for a longer period (normally < 20sec)
In the vid it´s a Boeing 777 anyways ...
Regarding the cockpit crew:
The fact that the F/O is flying has no relevance to safety nor experience. There are a lot F/O´s around that have a higher "Experience" that the captain.
The position of a pilot is not entirely determined by his/her experience but to a certain degree by seniority within the company.
But both pilot´s are equally qualified in any case !
BA would never allow any of it´s pilot´s qualification to "fade".
Jan 5, 2012, 2:56 am
#26
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Jan 5, 2012, 3:01 am
#27
Join Date: Jan 2003
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[QUOTE=MHG;17751155]If the sound that scared you is similar to that in the vid then it definitely is not the PTU (power transfer unit).
It is simply just an "unfortunate" power/rpm setting that creates a certain uncomfortable resonance. It has just a negative effect on passengers comfort but is no technical issue.
(same will happen to your car´s engine at a certain rpm - just try it out ...)/QUOTE]
You must have quite a car, MHG - do parts of the engine of a Bugatti Veyron go supersonic? I wouldn't personally try this at home.
It is simply just an "unfortunate" power/rpm setting that creates a certain uncomfortable resonance. It has just a negative effect on passengers comfort but is no technical issue.
(same will happen to your car´s engine at a certain rpm - just try it out ...)/QUOTE]
You must have quite a car, MHG - do parts of the engine of a Bugatti Veyron go supersonic? I wouldn't personally try this at home.
Jan 5, 2012, 3:02 am
#28
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 29
weather in London
The weather here has been severe in the last few days. The winds are really strong, my secretary mentioned some deaths caused by them out in Essex. I'm not at all surprised to hear there was a landing that felt out of the ordinary.
It does sound like a fear of flying course could be in order. Also, there are pharmaceutical options, if that appeals. More of a last resort though, IMO.
It does sound like a fear of flying course could be in order. Also, there are pharmaceutical options, if that appeals. More of a last resort though, IMO.
Jan 5, 2012, 4:14 am
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 45
Thank you so much everyone for your responses, although I try and tell myself everything is fine and normal, it's helps to hear it from people who know! I will definitely try and take the fear of flying course - I was hoping my fears would eventually go away on their own if I did it enough but that doesn't seem to be the case, so the course seems like a great way to try.
Apologies if i sounded like I was questioning the quality of the pilot - I know BA wouldn't have anyone less than excellent, it was more just my nerves talking.. although it still is a bit scary trusting someone with your life who you've never met! But as was rightly pointed out, the pilot wants to get home just as much as I do and they're all excellently qualified. In fact, he actually came out and stood with the stewardess saying goodbye as we disembarked which i've never seen before and was really nice.
Apologies if i sounded like I was questioning the quality of the pilot - I know BA wouldn't have anyone less than excellent, it was more just my nerves talking.. although it still is a bit scary trusting someone with your life who you've never met! But as was rightly pointed out, the pilot wants to get home just as much as I do and they're all excellently qualified. In fact, he actually came out and stood with the stewardess saying goodbye as we disembarked which i've never seen before and was really nice.
Jan 5, 2012, 5:20 am
#30
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I've heard that noise more during higher-power takeoffs, and that normally has corresponded to windier days. I've noticed it before on 737s, but less often on the Airbus aircraft. Again, on a blustery day, during a holding pattern the engines do tend to throttle up and down quite a bit as the aircraft turns into and out of the wind - quite normal, but I could understand why it might feel a little disconcerting.
The PTU noise on the Airbus always makes me smile. I think it sounds like someone sawing a lump of 4 by 2, but I have heard it described as a dog barking too. For someone not used to the A320 series aircraft it again can seem quite disconcerting. Especially as it normally comes just as everybody is standing up and getting ready to leave the cabin.
The reasons I feel more confident flying BA is I know (and we have seen evidence from the Cardiff maintenance facility) that BA's aircraft are very well maintained (at least from a flying point of view) and that the professionalism of the flight crew is second to none.
To the OP, there is an Airbus captain who seems to delight in regular PA's, full of little stories and anecdotes - I've heard him on two or three flights and he generally makes the passengers smile with his announcements. Normally the captain's PAs are very factual, but this Scottish guy goes the extra mile or 10... For me, I'd rather an extra PA or two than quiet from the pointy end. If nothing else it tells me that they have everything under control and have time to chat to us!
The PTU noise on the Airbus always makes me smile. I think it sounds like someone sawing a lump of 4 by 2, but I have heard it described as a dog barking too. For someone not used to the A320 series aircraft it again can seem quite disconcerting. Especially as it normally comes just as everybody is standing up and getting ready to leave the cabin.
The reasons I feel more confident flying BA is I know (and we have seen evidence from the Cardiff maintenance facility) that BA's aircraft are very well maintained (at least from a flying point of view) and that the professionalism of the flight crew is second to none.
To the OP, there is an Airbus captain who seems to delight in regular PA's, full of little stories and anecdotes - I've heard him on two or three flights and he generally makes the passengers smile with his announcements. Normally the captain's PAs are very factual, but this Scottish guy goes the extra mile or 10... For me, I'd rather an extra PA or two than quiet from the pointy end. If nothing else it tells me that they have everything under control and have time to chat to us!