MAN-USA 2-4-1 F redemption charges now over £1k.
Jan 3, 2012, 10:45 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: BA Gold, AA Lifetime Gold 1.8mm, IC Spire Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold et al
Posts: 4,350
MAN-USA 2-4-1 F redemption charges now over £1k.
Not a rant but, for me, a depressing observation.
I'm currently looking to redeem my Amex 2-4-1 in the next few months and find that the charges for 2 F seats to the US from MAN have now gone through the £1,000 barrier. When you add the (rising) card fee you're looking at around £1,200 to redeem even if you have the required Avios. The rise in charges even just over the past couple of years has been staggering.
For sure, that's a lot less than a purchased F ticket but for those like me who can't even contemplate paid F expenditure, it's getting close to rethinking the next card renewal.
I'm currently looking to redeem my Amex 2-4-1 in the next few months and find that the charges for 2 F seats to the US from MAN have now gone through the £1,000 barrier. When you add the (rising) card fee you're looking at around £1,200 to redeem even if you have the required Avios. The rise in charges even just over the past couple of years has been staggering.
For sure, that's a lot less than a purchased F ticket but for those like me who can't even contemplate paid F expenditure, it's getting close to rethinking the next card renewal.
Last edited by Blueboys999; Jan 3, 2012 at 10:56 am
Jan 3, 2012, 11:07 am
#2
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London, Sth Africa or LAS
Programs: VS Silver, BA Blue - finally; but hotels.com Gold :)
Posts: 1,858
I was thinking pretty similar thoughts in November whilst booking an ex-LHR 2f1, which came in at 150k avios + >£1,000. It has since gone up by over £50.
Two years ago an Antarctic cruise operator was stating their prices were subject to surcharge IF market value of West Texas passed $80. Happily I sneaked in at $79.
Last year the equivalent value to trigger a surcharge was put in at $90 (with quoted trip prices being adjusted upwards accordingly).
No doubt this year $100 will be the tipping point.
The point is its transparent, annual, and clear to see what will drive a surcharge.
With the European Airlines it has long since ceased being a surcharge.
It is also getting towards a point that (for all the perceived value), I may as well pay the £1,200 (2 x £600) and go in Y with a choice of 4 or 5 airlines.
I wonder if an FTer has the info to do the sums:
Assuming a projected Fuel price of $90 for 2012, set in June'11 (or whenever). How much would a fuel surcharge now for Y/W/J/F be if the revised assumption was $102, and the airline hedges at 40% of planned volume.
Any how does that number compare with the BA / LH / KLM fuel surchage number?
It is possible (I suppose) that fuel surcharges may not be so far off the mark, the frustrating thing is not knowing.
Two years ago an Antarctic cruise operator was stating their prices were subject to surcharge IF market value of West Texas passed $80. Happily I sneaked in at $79.
Last year the equivalent value to trigger a surcharge was put in at $90 (with quoted trip prices being adjusted upwards accordingly).
No doubt this year $100 will be the tipping point.
The point is its transparent, annual, and clear to see what will drive a surcharge.
With the European Airlines it has long since ceased being a surcharge.
It is also getting towards a point that (for all the perceived value), I may as well pay the £1,200 (2 x £600) and go in Y with a choice of 4 or 5 airlines.
I wonder if an FTer has the info to do the sums:
Assuming a projected Fuel price of $90 for 2012, set in June'11 (or whenever). How much would a fuel surcharge now for Y/W/J/F be if the revised assumption was $102, and the airline hedges at 40% of planned volume.
Any how does that number compare with the BA / LH / KLM fuel surchage number?
It is possible (I suppose) that fuel surcharges may not be so far off the mark, the frustrating thing is not knowing.
Jan 3, 2012, 12:08 pm
#3
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
Posts: 26,871
The key about fuel surcharges is this. In theory, a surcharge should only be acceptable BASED ON INCREASES IN THE OIL PRICE SINCE THE CURRENT TIMETABLE AND BASE (FULL-FLEX) FARES WERE FILED. So, if the Sep-March timetable and full-flex fares were filed with IATA in July, then you would only surcharge based on the increase in oil price between July 2011 and today.
This is not actually the case. BA seems to have arbitrarily picked an oil price ($20?) and surcharges above that. This is barking mad. Do you see any shops still selling goods based on the 15% VAT rate which ended 2 years ago, with an extra 5% added at the till to get to the current 20%?!
BA is not allowed to advertise non-surcharged fares or show non-surcharged prices on its website, which makes the whole thing an even bigger joke. Only 2 classes of people actually pay the surcharge as an additional item:
a) people of redemption tickets and
b) corporate clients whose flat-fare contracts allow for surcharges to be added on top
Even for b), any FTSE 100 company negotiating a deal with BA wouldn't stand for such nonsense year in, year out, given that corporate travel rates are usually renegotiated once a year. In reality, the only group people who ACTUALLY pay the surcharge are probably those on redemption tickets.
And, of course, redemption tickets only represent c 5% of BA seats anyway. So why even bother?
This is not actually the case. BA seems to have arbitrarily picked an oil price ($20?) and surcharges above that. This is barking mad. Do you see any shops still selling goods based on the 15% VAT rate which ended 2 years ago, with an extra 5% added at the till to get to the current 20%?!
BA is not allowed to advertise non-surcharged fares or show non-surcharged prices on its website, which makes the whole thing an even bigger joke. Only 2 classes of people actually pay the surcharge as an additional item:
a) people of redemption tickets and
b) corporate clients whose flat-fare contracts allow for surcharges to be added on top
Even for b), any FTSE 100 company negotiating a deal with BA wouldn't stand for such nonsense year in, year out, given that corporate travel rates are usually renegotiated once a year. In reality, the only group people who ACTUALLY pay the surcharge are probably those on redemption tickets.
And, of course, redemption tickets only represent c 5% of BA seats anyway. So why even bother?
Jan 3, 2012, 12:30 pm
#4
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MAN/BHX
Programs: ABBA
Posts: 6,027
EU redemptions are looking to be the best use of avios now. A colleague has had a €400 compensation for a 9 hour overnight delay in DME, and is using the money to go on a weekend break.
He was looking at New York, but I've advised a weekend in Vienna and a weekend in Rome, club europe, for 2 people, which is £136 for the flights. Like me he's used to travelling in luxury (often as high as W class!), but Club Europe is a civilised trip.
He was looking at New York, but I've advised a weekend in Vienna and a weekend in Rome, club europe, for 2 people, which is £136 for the flights. Like me he's used to travelling in luxury (often as high as W class!), but Club Europe is a civilised trip.
Jan 3, 2012, 12:40 pm
#5
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London-Nice
Programs: GGL
Posts: 1,425
I agree that the charges are getting really high and even though, as you say, the pounds you pay for redemption compared to F or CW ticket are lowish ( they should be given the avios and vouchers needed etc!) it doesn't feel great. I just booked three CW seats and had to pay 1650 in charges, I also just booked four Eurostar premium class returns with points and had to pay 0 in fees. Incomparable of course, but the Eurostar redemption really made me feel good.
There will indeed be lots and lots more EU redemptions!
There will indeed be lots and lots more EU redemptions!
Jan 3, 2012, 12:58 pm
#6
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 487
The key about fuel surcharges is this. In theory, a surcharge should only be acceptable BASED ON INCREASES IN THE OIL PRICE SINCE THE CURRENT TIMETABLE AND BASE (FULL-FLEX) FARES WERE FILED. So, if the Sep-March timetable and full-flex fares were filed with IATA in July, then you would only surcharge based on the increase in oil price between July 2011 and today.
This is not actually the case. BA seems to have arbitrarily picked an oil price ($20?) and surcharges above that. This is barking mad. Do you see any shops still selling goods based on the 15% VAT rate which ended 2 years ago, with an extra 5% added at the till to get to the current 20%?!
BA is not allowed to advertise non-surcharged fares or show non-surcharged prices on its website, which makes the whole thing an even bigger joke. Only 2 classes of people actually pay the surcharge as an additional item:
a) people of redemption tickets and
b) corporate clients whose flat-fare contracts allow for surcharges to be added on top
Even for b), any FTSE 100 company negotiating a deal with BA wouldn't stand for such nonsense year in, year out, given that corporate travel rates are usually renegotiated once a year. In reality, the only group people who ACTUALLY pay the surcharge are probably those on redemption tickets.
And, of course, redemption tickets only represent c 5% of BA seats anyway. So why even bother?
This is not actually the case. BA seems to have arbitrarily picked an oil price ($20?) and surcharges above that. This is barking mad. Do you see any shops still selling goods based on the 15% VAT rate which ended 2 years ago, with an extra 5% added at the till to get to the current 20%?!
BA is not allowed to advertise non-surcharged fares or show non-surcharged prices on its website, which makes the whole thing an even bigger joke. Only 2 classes of people actually pay the surcharge as an additional item:
a) people of redemption tickets and
b) corporate clients whose flat-fare contracts allow for surcharges to be added on top
Even for b), any FTSE 100 company negotiating a deal with BA wouldn't stand for such nonsense year in, year out, given that corporate travel rates are usually renegotiated once a year. In reality, the only group people who ACTUALLY pay the surcharge are probably those on redemption tickets.
And, of course, redemption tickets only represent c 5% of BA seats anyway. So why even bother?
Jan 3, 2012, 5:02 pm
#7
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: AUS / DXB
Programs: BA Silver | AA LT Gold | EY Silver | Marriott LT Titanium
Posts: 1,838
With the effective devaluation of BA miles/points for North American flyers such as myself, and the recent increase in fuel surcharges, there remain very few scenarios where points retain good value. Those scenarios are MFUing to CW and using a 2-4-1. Otherwise, a lot of the redemption values are simply terrible.
For example, a US-Middle East award in CW costs 180,000 Avois and over $1,250 per person in taxes and charges. The same award in J on AA, for example, costs 130,000 miles and $150 in taxes (if not using BA; BA flights will incur YQ at the BA rate). Similarly, a US-India award in F costs 300,000 Avois and over $1,300 per person, while on AA this award costs 180,000 miles and $150 in taxes.
There was a time when it was worth paying YQ for the superior BA product. Now, with increasing YQ charges and the increased points requirements for many destinations, it is simply not worth it anymore.
For example, a US-Middle East award in CW costs 180,000 Avois and over $1,250 per person in taxes and charges. The same award in J on AA, for example, costs 130,000 miles and $150 in taxes (if not using BA; BA flights will incur YQ at the BA rate). Similarly, a US-India award in F costs 300,000 Avois and over $1,300 per person, while on AA this award costs 180,000 miles and $150 in taxes.
There was a time when it was worth paying YQ for the superior BA product. Now, with increasing YQ charges and the increased points requirements for many destinations, it is simply not worth it anymore.
Jan 3, 2012, 5:14 pm
#8
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Italy 90% - Rest of the World 10%
Programs: Marriott + Hilton. Fly BA and AZ
Posts: 2,912
With the effective devaluation of BA miles/points for North American flyers such as myself, and the recent increase in fuel surcharges, there remain very few scenarios where points retain good value. Those scenarios are MFUing to CW and using a 2-4-1. Otherwise, a lot of the redemption values are simply terrible.
For example, a US-Middle East award in CW costs 180,000 Avois and over $1,250 per person in taxes and charges. The same award in J on AA, for example, costs 130,000 miles and $150 in taxes (if not using BA; BA flights will incur YQ at the BA rate). Similarly, a US-India award in F costs 300,000 Avois and over $1,300 per person, while on AA this award costs 180,000 miles and $150 in taxes.
There was a time when it was worth paying YQ for the superior BA product. Now, with increasing YQ charges and the increased points requirements for many destinations, it is simply not worth it anymore.
For example, a US-Middle East award in CW costs 180,000 Avois and over $1,250 per person in taxes and charges. The same award in J on AA, for example, costs 130,000 miles and $150 in taxes (if not using BA; BA flights will incur YQ at the BA rate). Similarly, a US-India award in F costs 300,000 Avois and over $1,300 per person, while on AA this award costs 180,000 miles and $150 in taxes.
There was a time when it was worth paying YQ for the superior BA product. Now, with increasing YQ charges and the increased points requirements for many destinations, it is simply not worth it anymore.
A MIA - MXP redemption with AZ is J is 203€ RETURN
thats roughly 170£...
You can use 2 4 1 amex voucher (AZ amex voucher obviously..)
Jan 3, 2012, 5:48 pm
#9
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Programs: BA
Posts: 2,368
By comparison
I'm currently helping a friend get from the US to India and back again. I couldn't help but be amazed at how EWR-BOM on CO in J was 150k miles (one-way) and $2.50 in taxes. That's $2.50, not $250. I did clean my glasses and squint at the screen a few times just to be sure.
MAA-SIN-LHR-JFK was a mere $60 in taxes.
The lack of outlandish YQ and APD was a sight to behold.
MAA-SIN-LHR-JFK was a mere $60 in taxes.
The lack of outlandish YQ and APD was a sight to behold.
Jan 4, 2012, 3:31 am
#10
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SYD, LHR
Posts: 139
Just did our once every 18 or 24 months LHR-SYD rt GGL 'joker' Redemption for all 4 of the family in first. Used 2 amex vouchers and 2 GUF2s
- the good news, only 400k avios needed.... Must be one of the best value ways to use them, depending on how you count the 4 vouchers. Effectively 4 first class 300k tickets for the price of 2 business class 200ks. Now if that doesnt get you to keepup the 3000 t points a year what will?
- the bad news, charges and taxes were 2142 pounds.... 2 adults 551 and 2 kids 520. Nice the30 quid discount for kids...
Then again, when i see it costs almost as much in charges for the MAN JFK maybe it should be 2 x good news... (relatively)
Also interesting was on the outbound inApril we got the last 4 seats in the cabin - (seat map full although still selling F1 on GDS). So not only the joker is a great asset, but also says that in April when BA go down to one flight a day to Australia,they are still selling plenty of the seats in the front. which in the end will make the GGL even more important on this route.
- the good news, only 400k avios needed.... Must be one of the best value ways to use them, depending on how you count the 4 vouchers. Effectively 4 first class 300k tickets for the price of 2 business class 200ks. Now if that doesnt get you to keepup the 3000 t points a year what will?
- the bad news, charges and taxes were 2142 pounds.... 2 adults 551 and 2 kids 520. Nice the30 quid discount for kids...
Then again, when i see it costs almost as much in charges for the MAN JFK maybe it should be 2 x good news... (relatively)
Also interesting was on the outbound inApril we got the last 4 seats in the cabin - (seat map full although still selling F1 on GDS). So not only the joker is a great asset, but also says that in April when BA go down to one flight a day to Australia,they are still selling plenty of the seats in the front. which in the end will make the GGL even more important on this route.
Jan 4, 2012, 4:08 am
#11
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 487
Just did our once every 18 or 24 months LHR-SYD rt GGL 'joker' Redemption for all 4 of the family in first. Used 2 amex vouchers and 2 GUF2s
- the good news, only 400k avios needed.... Must be one of the best value ways to use them, depending on how you count the 4 vouchers. Effectively 4 first class 300k tickets for the price of 2 business class 200ks. Now if that doesnt get you to keepup the 3000 t points a year what will?
- the bad news, charges and taxes were 2142 pounds.... 2 adults 551 and 2 kids 520. Nice the30 quid discount for kids...
Then again, when i see it costs almost as much in charges for the MAN JFK maybe it should be 2 x good news... (relatively)
Also interesting was on the outbound inApril we got the last 4 seats in the cabin - (seat map full although still selling F1 on GDS). So not only the joker is a great asset, but also says that in April when BA go down to one flight a day to Australia,they are still selling plenty of the seats in the front. which in the end will make the GGL even more important on this route.
- the good news, only 400k avios needed.... Must be one of the best value ways to use them, depending on how you count the 4 vouchers. Effectively 4 first class 300k tickets for the price of 2 business class 200ks. Now if that doesnt get you to keepup the 3000 t points a year what will?
- the bad news, charges and taxes were 2142 pounds.... 2 adults 551 and 2 kids 520. Nice the30 quid discount for kids...
Then again, when i see it costs almost as much in charges for the MAN JFK maybe it should be 2 x good news... (relatively)
Also interesting was on the outbound inApril we got the last 4 seats in the cabin - (seat map full although still selling F1 on GDS). So not only the joker is a great asset, but also says that in April when BA go down to one flight a day to Australia,they are still selling plenty of the seats in the front. which in the end will make the GGL even more important on this route.
Jan 4, 2012, 1:56 pm
#12
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MAN/BHX
Programs: ABBA
Posts: 6,027
* GGLs
* GLA/EDI/NCL/MAN/LHR/LGW/LCY->EU
* MFUs
* A 241, the only way most of us will ever see the front of a 747
What have Avios ever done for us?
(I personally value the tier points, and the lounge access that comes with it, more than the avios)
Jan 4, 2012, 1:59 pm
#13
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC (Gold), Hilton (Gold)
Posts: 4,168
I agree the taxes/surcharges are getting out of hand but then commercial economy tickets are becoming pretty expensive too...
BAH
Jan 4, 2012, 2:45 pm
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: BA Gold, AA Lifetime Gold 1.8mm, IC Spire Ambassador, Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold et al
Posts: 4,350
Don't forget as well that unlike many FF schemes BA Avios do not expire if there is any activity within 3 years, so even for slower earners it is possible to save miles for the pointy end of the plane.
I agree the taxes/surcharges are getting out of hand but then commercial economy tickets are becoming pretty expensive too...
BAH
I agree the taxes/surcharges are getting out of hand but then commercial economy tickets are becoming pretty expensive too...
BAH
The 2-4-1 problem for slow earners is that your necessary spend on the Amex resets every 12 months and you're compelled to renew and keep the voucher active if you aren't able to accumulate enough points to use it in that year, all adding the already high cost. YMMV but I wonder if I'd have got myself on this cycle if I'd foreseen where charges and card fees were going.
Out if interest, do these charges ever go DOWN???
Jan 4, 2012, 3:55 pm
#15
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 3,951
Less than a year ago I booked GLA-LAX(2-4-1), £401pp, the same trip is now £570. I expected an increase of fee's although of 40%+ in less than a year is surprising. Still good value thanks to the 2-4-1 however without using one, I would not be so sure.