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Strike ballot called: here we go [General discussion of BA industrial relations]

Strike ballot called: here we go [General discussion of BA industrial relations]

Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:04 am
  #46  
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Are we being a little short-sighted? Most of BA's customers are not aware of or don't care about the claims and counterclaims. They just know, 'Oh, it's another BA strike', 'I won't be able to fly BA for my holiday', etc etc. This on top of all the bad press (justified or not) about paying for seat reservations, extra baggage charges and the withdrawal of s/h catering.

Anybody with half a brain would think twice about making new BA bookings from January onwards until this dispute is over. Imagine the impact on jobs and job prospects if that idea becomes widespread.

I like to think that I am reasonableness embodied, but am wondering if there is just a hint of the reactionary creeping in. I remember publicly-owned utilities and nationalised industries, including the mines, the old BA and British Leyland. We (they) sold off the family silver and our utilities are largely owned by foreign corporations or foreign nationalised industries. The mines are no more. Red Robbo did for British Leyland, and only massive foreign investment rescued the British motor industry.

To the outsider, attitudes within BA appear locked into outdated public sector attitudes without taking into account that the company is now a PLC. No longer feather-bedded, the company has to pay its way or fail in its current status. The world has changed. Passengers don't owe BA staff a living and can easily choose alternatives. EZ and FR been able to thrive and will doubtless continue to do so.

In my case, I won't fly AF or KL because of previous unsatisfactory experiences. I will only fly FR for discretionary trips costing 5 or less all in (and of course don't expect BA to try to compete) and would only fly UA if there were no alternative. (In the distant past, my list included MA and OK, but they have improved.) I really don't want to add BA to that list but if the unresolved dispute/s force me, I know that loyalty only flows one way.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:06 am
  #47  
 
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Originally Posted by BAHumbug
Aha - we have a winner ! @:-) @:-)

I totally agree with this. Strikes always have all sorts of fall-out - let's face it, that's why Unions use them as a bargaining tool.

BAH

Speak for yourself - you have a winner
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:13 am
  #48  
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From ft.com:
Average salaries of BAs cabin attendants are 29,900, more than double those at Virgin, and well above EasyJets 20,200. On a number of international flights, BA has two more crew than Virgin.
If true, will VS and EZ crew strike for parity?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d66691e0-c...nclick_check=1
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:27 am
  #49  
 
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Originally Posted by Roger
To the outsider, attitudes within BA appear locked into outdated public sector attitudes without taking into account that the company is now a PLC. No longer feather-bedded, the company has to pay its way or fail in its current status. The world has changed. Passengers don't owe BA staff a living and can easily choose alternatives. EZ and FR been able to thrive and will doubtless continue to do so.
BASSA is a stone around BA's neck that will, if it continues in this way, bring BA close to collapse. I only hope, for everyone's sake, that BASSA will be seen to have made such serious errors this time round that it won't gain support for its strike and will finally be put back in its box.

The number of absurd things that BASSA have done are too numerous to mention. Of course, they object to the LCY-JFK service (because they treat this as a short-haul and long-haul trip, and say that their agreements provide that crew shouldn't have to work both short haul and long haul segments; they refuse to recognise a 'technical stop' and thus insist on more crew).

The information they have issued about this dispute is not only full of misinformation, but is beyond childish: containing images of Walsh with red eyes and a mock threat from BA (140m or else) in newspaper cut-out letters.

As a passenger, I'm very worried about potential strikes. As a shareholder, I support Walsh 100% in refusing to back down this time. The cabin crew have to make savings, and - in this economy - having e.g. a non-serving CSD is a luxury that BA cannot afford. BASSA's refusal to recognise the economic difficulties; to accept that a saving of 140m is needed; and to negotiate sensibly towards that target have stripped it of any credibility it ever had.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:36 am
  #50  
 
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This link was posted on PPruNe...

http://uniteba.com/COSTSAVINGTALKSPAGE.html

You can download the BASSA/CC89 newsletters (with WW with red eyes)...
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:47 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by BahrainLad
I got as far as the picture of WW before giving up.

I remember the Conservatives tried the same idea at general election time with a picture of T Blair - they used his eyes upside down to create a sinister image. They lost.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:50 am
  #52  
 
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I'd just to say that I'm disappointed and to a certain extent mortified that a ballot has been announced. Childish behaviour from both sides, but especially from the unions in the last year or so has put us in a rather difficult predicament. I personally don't agree with striking, and will be voting against it. A lot of my colleagues at my base won't be striking either, by the looks of things.

Unfortunately, I feel the union has misrepresented us and in several ways they have lied as well. Therefore, I think management will take this to the courts and find a legal loophole.

As for a time scale, the unions announced it today, which means the ballot will go in the post next monday (7 days notice). Due to the trip structure of the flying programme, the minimum time the ballot can run for is 3 weeks. Bringing the postal strike issues into it, the ballot may run for 4 weeks. After that, if the result is in favour of a strike, the union will have to give the company 7 days notice of any action. The action must be within 28 days. This is as I understand it.

I'm really crossing my fingers on this one. Any industrial action could mean the beginning of the end of BA, and I would hate to see that happen. For the record, none of the CC live on the breadline due to pay. Yes, most of us aren't paid very much, but a heck of a lot of other people in the UK earn less and manage fine. The figures that have been bandied around in the media are an average worked out from all grades. Most CSDs are on 4 times my salary, as an example.

All I can say is that I'm sorry, and that I hope the strike is averted somehow.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 11:52 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by hammythehammer
You've been extremely lucky then . IIRC under present TUPE you could have kissed goodbye to the 20k a Year going into your pension pot.
I would hate to comment on the eroding of T&C's of someone earning 20k a Year , when in reality my own pension fund is being topped up by that amount.
All Raffles is doing is highlighting that T&C's can have long term consequences, in terms of relative cost structures for companies. If the market moves against you (either as an employer or employee), then market forces and competition may force the issue. Put very bluntly, that is happening to BA in a big way. For a long time it has survived on very high yielding full fare J passengers. But now, they have gone in sufficient numbers so the income doesn't cover the costs,whilst at the same time the LCC have decimated shorthaul, compared to what BA used to be able to charge/command. Video Conference will take another big chunk out of premuim flying.

So, whilst it is horrible for the staff (and actually BA as a company) they have no choice. The only choice is to reduce costs, which means either (a) job losses or (b) reduced benefits / improved productivity. However, if it is just job losses this only scales back the airline, it doesn't reduce it's cost structure.

Really it all comes down to staying on reduced terms or leaving (voluntarily or through compulsory redundancy), I see no other end game.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:02 pm
  #54  
 
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As a ex union member of the RMT (a different group I know but still very militant) my reasons for joining were for protection from being dumped on by my incompetant senior mangers and company who provided no protection for me to do my job in.

The union was great because they protected my interest and provided support when problems occurred. A frequent occurance when you are dealing with a company whose HR performance is lousy.

The union however also had its problems that it sometimes protected the indefensible and also focused on certain groups of staff rather than the whole. As someone who when I first started working said that they would never join a union, I am glad I did and in certain circumstances would again.

I now work with a lot of companies that have unions and see much the same from their unions. Sometimes the companies are wrong, also sometimes the unions are as much to blame as the companies at times because of this mandate to protect their members.

A mandate to protect the rights of the workers is fine but at the same time logic, reason and sensibility also have to be used by the union leadership. If the company is bleeding money, cuts need to be made and yes the union should protect the workers but also work with the company to ensure the suvivability of both the company and jobs. No company means no union so cutting off the arm that feeds you is stupid.

An example of this is 2 car factories in canada. At one factory the union refused to take a pay cut and lose some benefits. The other one the union recognised the company was in trouble and agreed to some cuts etc but not without some compromise. In the end the factory with the good union relations is still in operation, the other, well lets just say its not.....

IMHO It seems to me the union relationship handling at BA is in need of a big shake up along with the Cabin crew taking control of their union leadership and giving them a balanced instruction on how to proceed with the talks.

All this talk of stike does nothing to help the confidence of passengers, the finacial situation of BA, or the crews. BOTH BA management and the Union need to remember this because without passengers, there is no airline............
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:03 pm
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by StevieJ
Unions make me angry; why are they so stupid as to look to strike when their company, and the economy, are both in a fragile state? All I care about is my own travel plans and possible disruption. I don't care about BA or their staff in respect of what they do - only if it affects me personally and my plans.
Hilarious

I care for BA crew. I care for them as I hope for their sake the possible strike action does not occur during one of the peak travel times of the year, where disruption would be extra costly to all.

If it crashes my personal travel plans then I will have to change dates on the tickets and reschedule.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:13 pm
  #56  
 
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The only people who will win from this sorry mess are BA's competitors ("our phones have been red hot" said Paul Charles of Virgin Atlantic etc).

To those who are berating BA management over this, look at it from their perspective. They have the double whammy of a higher cost base than the competition and lower productivity and efficiency. When yields have gone through the floor across the industry, pretending nothing needs to change is not an option. Most work groups at BA have undergone modernisation of working practices, apart from LHR cabin crew. Everything was up for negotiation but BASSA wouldn't budge. BASSA tried to stonewall BA by not turning up to meetings. They produced their own cost-saving proposals which were found by PwC to be not even one third of their intended target. When they did turn up to meetings they would turn up late, refuse to listen to a presentation from a "junior financial clerk" from Waterside on projected yields, and refuse to sit in the same room as the CC89 branch (now they claim to be one big happy family). The only surprise about imposition of changes is that it didn't come sooner.

Given BASSA's conduct in negotiations and their highly misleading communications to members, I would not be surprised if BA gets an injunction to block any strike. In fact, I think it is inevitable that there will be court action. WW also has an ace up his sleeve in that until 2011 he has the option to sue Unite for 40m for their alleged involvement in the GG walkout.

And finally, for those who think that BASSA care about all CC, why wasn't there this uproar when LGW crew underwent far more radical changes to working practices three years ago?

Last edited by ian001; Oct 26, 2009 at 2:13 pm
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:35 pm
  #57  
 
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Originally Posted by Petrus
Hilarious

I care for BA crew. I care for them as I hope for their sake the possible strike action does not occur during one of the peak travel times of the year, where disruption would be extra costly to all.

If it crashes my personal travel plans then I will have to change dates on the tickets and reschedule.
Its easy to care when you have flexible plans you can change. Many wont be in that situation and will find it very hard to book new tickets at Xmas.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:50 pm
  #58  
 
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Originally Posted by Raffles
BA's problem, fundamentally, is not their fault. Its long history, and the mergers that put it together, have brought together a large number of people under different contracts and conditions, most of which were drawn up in a different time.

.....

Unfortunately for BA, there are now large numbers of new airlines in the UK (VS, EZ, FR etc etc) who hired their staff in different economic times and do not have massive pension liabilities or staff on contracts with overtly-generous (by current norms) pay schemes or perks. And, until their is a massive movement towards those levels, the company will continue to struggle. No-one likes it, but there it is.

I suspect there is another twist on this tale which stems from BA's public ownership and its position as the flag carrier - BA sometimes feels like it's not quite private yet not quite state owned.

There are people in this forum who still today treat this listed company as somehow symbolising England (yes, I do mean England not the UK) much more than Virgin or BMI, witness all the noise about the tail designs and questions in the house about the T5 opening.

Similarly from some of the public utterances, I get the sense a few in the union are confused by the previous ownership and they subconciously expect final salary pensions & unlimited job security, just like any other public sector employee.
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:51 pm
  #59  
 
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Originally Posted by HIDDY
Bring back Maggie - she'd sort them out. ^
Hear, hear!
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Old Oct 26, 2009, 12:52 pm
  #60  
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Originally Posted by glamgirl20
I'd just to say that I'm disappointed and to a certain extent mortified that a ballot has been announced. Childish behaviour from both sides, but especially from the unions in the last year or so has put us in a rather difficult predicament. I personally don't agree with striking, and will be voting against it. A lot of my colleagues at my base won't be striking either, by the looks of things.

Unfortunately, I feel the union has misrepresented us and in several ways they have lied as well. Therefore, I think management will take this to the courts and find a legal loophole.

As for a time scale, the unions announced it today, which means the ballot will go in the post next monday (7 days notice). Due to the trip structure of the flying programme, the minimum time the ballot can run for is 3 weeks. Bringing the postal strike issues into it, the ballot may run for 4 weeks. After that, if the result is in favour of a strike, the union will have to give the company 7 days notice of any action. The action must be within 28 days. This is as I understand it.

I'm really crossing my fingers on this one. Any industrial action could mean the beginning of the end of BA, and I would hate to see that happen. For the record, none of the CC live on the breadline due to pay. Yes, most of us aren't paid very much, but a heck of a lot of other people in the UK earn less and manage fine. The figures that have been bandied around in the media are an average worked out from all grades. Most CSDs are on 4 times my salary, as an example.

All I can say is that I'm sorry, and that I hope the strike is averted somehow.
Thanks for this.

Your timings, suggest if a strike ends up happening it would start between 30 November and 28 December.
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