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Apr 1, 2019, 2:54 am

#16

Gasolin

Join Date: Nov 2013

Location: NYC

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nanyang

I do not believe the rating scale to be the same (could be wrong, but remember looking into this some years ago). BTW, tried to find the rating on Moody's and could not. How do they list it?

You mean the scale for Moody's rating?
https://www.moodys.com/sites/product..._1_1408_KI.pdf

Basically just 1, 2, 3.

It seems that KIS uses + and - like S&P but they have a perfect correspondence anyway so that shouldn't be a worry.
So for AA, you would have:

AA+ = Aa1
AA = Aa2
AA- = Aa3

KIS is Moody's. It's not super clear here:
https://www.moodys.com/Pages/atc002001005.aspx

But it is here:
https://ir.moodys.com/news-and-finan...S/default.aspx

Apr 1, 2019, 3:12 am

#17

nanyang

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasolin

I'm actually interested in KIS ratings vs. Moody's.

KIS have BBB- for senior unsecured of Asiana Airlines Inc. (checked BB). BBB- is obviously a very good rating for an airline.

For example, AA Inc. have Ba1 (maps to BB+).

I do not think KIS vs. Moody's ratings are 100% equivalent. Would be happy to fully understand differences - if any - here.

Apr 1, 2019, 3:23 am

#18

Gasolin

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Location: NYC

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Posts: 775

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanyang

KIS BBB- is Baa3 for Moody's. You will notice Moody's doesn't rate Korean counterparties, I suppose it means they let KIS handle those.
So in fine, KIS ratings are Moody's ratings.

Apr 1, 2019, 3:36 am

#19

nanyang

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasolin

KIS BBB- is Baa3 for Moody's. You will notice Moody's doesn't rate Korean counterparties, I suppose it means they let KIS handle those.
So in fine, KIS ratings are Moody's ratings.

I still do not think BBB- of KIS is the same as Baa3 of Moody's.

One dimension is that KIS ratings are local currency ratings.

Apr 1, 2019, 4:21 pm

#20

wtcmor

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Media reports suggest route cuts, any ideas which ones? I assume JFK would be safe

Apr 1, 2019, 6:21 pm

#21

zippy the pinhead

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Left Coast

Posts: 862

If an airline goes BK, what happens to the FF miles that folks are holding all over the world? Do they go to FF miles "heaven," similar to the way that shareholders of common stock in the company end up SOL?

Apr 2, 2019, 1:28 am

#22

THD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy the pinhead

Anyone with miles becomes just another creditor.

In the case of BK the miles are as good as gone.

Apr 2, 2019, 1:36 am

#23

Jaimito Cartero

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Quote:

Originally Posted by THD

Anyone with miles becomes just another creditor.

In the case of BK the miles are as good as gone.

I’ve had miles in a number of US airlines that went bankrupt, but kept operating.

Apr 2, 2019, 2:06 am

#24

Daawgon

Join Date: Apr 2008

Location: Dalat, Vietnam

Programs: Vietnam, Asiana, Singapore, EVA, Southwest

Posts: 934

Major financial problems for OZ

Asiana Airlines To Reduce Fleet And Cut Routes Amid Financial Difficulty

There go the A380's!

Apr 2, 2019, 2:21 am

#25

Mwenenzi

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https://uk.reuters.com/article/asian...-idUKL3N21J1QH

Quote:

UPDATE 2-S.Korea's Asiana to cut unprofitable routes, fleet size in revamp bid
Heekyong Yang, Ju-min Park

* Cash-strapped airline to cut down routes and fleet size - CEO
* Selling off jets to leasing company might be an option - analyst
* Asiana co-CEO quit last week after accounting fiasco, ratings at risk (Adds comments from CEO and analyst, background)

By Heekyong Yang and Ju-min Park

SEOUL, April 1 (Reuters) - South Korea’s cash-strapped Asiana Airlines Inc plans to cut unprofitable routes and the size of its fleet to improve its financial health, Chief Executive Han Chang-soo said in a letter to employees on Monday.

Han’s co-chief executive resigned on Thursday and its debt-ridden parent Kumho Asiana Group sought financial support from its biggest creditor after an accounting fiasco triggered warnings of credit rating downgrades.
<snip>

Apr 2, 2019, 5:02 am

#26

THD

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaimito Cartero

I’ve had miles in a number of US airlines that went bankrupt, but kept operating.

That would be chapter 11, which is temporary protection from creditors to allow time to reorganise. Proper bankruptcy is chapter 7, in which case miles are gone.

Apr 2, 2019, 7:03 am

#27

DownUnderFlyer

Moderator: Asiana & Qantas Frequent Flyer

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[mod hat] Merging some posts with the existing thread and modified the thread title for more clarity. [/mod hat]

AlwaysFlyStar likes this.

Apr 2, 2019, 9:19 am

#28

zippy the pinhead

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: Left Coast

Posts: 862

Quote:

Originally Posted by THD

That would be chapter 11, which is temporary protection from creditors to allow time to reorganise. Proper bankruptcy is chapter 7, in which case miles are gone.

IANAL, so how does that work out on a practical level? Asiana is a Korean company, with a corporate presence in various places. So do they file in US courts for the US presence? Or, only in Korea?

A family member will be doing some significant flying on a *A airline in the near future and I was planning to route the miles to Asiana, where we have family pooling in place. Now I'm having second thoughts.

Apr 4, 2019, 8:46 am

#29

jon503

Join Date: Jul 2012

Location: Seoul

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zippy the pinhead

Kumho Asiana is a Korean company incorporated under Korean law, so any bankruptcy proceedings would mainly be filed in Korea. I'm sure they also have a US corporate entity that would have to file in US courts, but that's just a side show. There is an equivalent to Chapter 11 in Korea (court receivership) and that scenario could conceivably come into play. In that case, just as Jaimito Cartero wrote above your miles will probably be fine (though no guarantees). I don't think the Korean government would let Asiana go fully belly up and would probably bail them out through state-owned or partially state-owned financial institutions such as KDB. So far, it seems Asiana might just muddle through, even if at the cost of pride, routes and planes.

I just really hope they don't try to skimp on the maintenance again (!) and of course also that the soft service stays good. The food has already taken a nose dive...