Firewind

Incident Commander, or usually, on scene, it's "IC". And usually, it's "[Name of incident, such as Jesusita Fire, or just Jesusita] IC" because there is often/usually more than one incident working in a jurisdiction or on a radio frequency. IC and others are standard positions in the standardized Incident Command System. In some areas, it's "[Name of incident, such as 89 Elm] Command". The first senior officer on scene will assume command, and when a more senior officer arrives and is prepared, s/he assumes command and announces this to the operational forces and dispatch. And on up the line. This may happen again at a shift change. Either the first IC on scene or dispatch will usually assign a name to the incident.

I don't know more detail than this - such as the name - for this incident.

disalex

Something to keep in mind is you don't want 100 ambulances just swooping down on a scene. I would have to see a time line of who arrived when but a process like Scubatooth described with things done in the proper order and systematically will result in the most patients receiving the maximum benefit in the quickest time. It may LOOK bad at times, when an incident commander is sizing up the scene etc. and it appears nothing is happening. The fact is you are not going to have 300 crews so deploying resources in a controlled fashion is imperative. I don't know what the timeline was in this case, I've seen no evidence anybody does but there are radio records and it wouldn't be a great trick to produce a very comprehensive timeline. Without that I'm not going to judge.
The other issue I would like to see more information on is what did the ambulances have to do to get on the field. It's very possible there was a delay or confusion at that point, I've seen it.

DaviddesJ

The upset people calling with their mobiles (and the UA pilots) were the first people who needed emergency assistance, because they were with the most critically injured victims who were dying while the responders weren't aware of them. It's not a criticism of any individual dispatcher or responder to say that the system failed to communicate this information from the people who had it to the people who could act on it.

blarf

I've been following this thread (among others) with interest. Saw this and I figured I'd jump in.

In California mobile 911 calls are, by default, routed to the nearest CHP call center. This means Vallejo for Northern California and Monterey (not 100% sure on the latter) for SoCal. For years this is how all mobile 911 calls were routed.

As of roughly twelve years ago, as part of Assembly Bill 1263, this is no longer the case. The CHP is now the default, but some municipalities have opted to have mobile 911 calls routed to more local call centers. In San Francisco, calls are routed straight to the SF city/county emergency call center. I'm unsure how things are configured in San Mateo, but there's a pretty good chance that the San Mateo 911 center would have received the call.

www.cio.ca.gov/PSCO/Services/911/we911.htm

us2

According to the LA Times today, the NTSB said that a preliminary phase of the investigation has found "no anomalous behavior" in the autopilot and autothrottle systems on Asiana 214. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...,6928174.story

The story then goes on to state that the blinding flash reported by the pilot flying was apparently the result of reflected glare from the sun.

The affected runway could reopen as early as Sunday.

While this does seem to rule out a mechanical issue with an uncommanded autothrottle disconnect, it is only a preliminary finding. If I recall correctly, it took some time into the investigation of the Eastern 401 crash in the Everglades in 1972 to determine that mismatched autopilots could result in a situation where the autopilot was disconnected without the usual aural warning to the flight crew. That resulted in the crew, which was preoccupied with trying to fix a landing gear indicator bulb, allowing the plane to descend and crash into the Everglades.

Firewind

On major incidents, a staging area will be designated. For major airports, this is predetermined, and emergency departments know where it is, and moreover, there are signs for them, particularly the more remote, secondary, tertiary etc. responding resources. If one noses around the nether regions of an airport with commercial service, one likely will come upon these.

Not to go far afield, but to illustrate: During the Boston Marathon bombing incident, I saw 43 ambulances (from many surrounding cities) staged one street over from Boylston within a half hour, and then feeding into the scene. Their original dispatch was to the staging area, not to the scene per se. Obviously, the police were in command of the incident, but Boston EMS was in charge of EMS, and the staging procedure is typical.

JDiver

Welcome to FlyerTalk!

The tower undoubtedly called another number than mobile 9-1-1 / CHP.

But I think cellular / mobile calls in much of the greater Bay Area (including San Mateo County) still go to the CHP Communication and Dispatch Center for the Golden gate Division, which is: Golden Gate Communications Center, 1551 Benicia Road, Vallejo 94591-7568

Many first aid instructors, etc. tell locals in San Mateo County to call the local San Mateo County Office of Public Safety Communications; with mobile phones they should call directly to 650-363-4911.

At times like the crash it can be quicker as well - CHP Comm has sometimes been saturated with callers during major emergencies, and it as taken as long as twenty minutes to get through historically - you can not have the number of people working to meet the maximum call volume.

SWCPHX

I wish I could find the breakdown after action report on this response, but here in contrast is what LA City Fire was able to marshal with a 2 hour lead time. This is what is possible when you know about an event and can have resources staged in preparation. But again, when a 777 just bangs into your runway, you can only send who is available. The detailed after action report was quite interesting to read as it went into move up assignments to ensure that no areas were left without coverage. Some of the responding units came from 20-30 miles away (Heavy Rescue 56 in particular) because those areas had "extra" apparatus to number of calls for service and could spare them.

***
On Wednesday, September 21, 2005, at 4:28 p.m. PDT, twenty-four companies of Los Angeles Firefighters, one Assistant Chief Officer Command Team, five Battalion Chief Officer Command Teams, four Battalion EMS Supervisors, twenty LAFD Rescue Ambulances, LAFD Heavy Rescue 56, two LAFD Urban Search and Rescue Teams, two LAFD Helicopters, one Los Angeles County Battalion Chief, one LA County Fire Company, two LA County Fire Boats, two Coast Guard Fire Boats, five private Ambulances, and other city and state agencies, under the direction of Deputy Chief Mario D. Rueda, were pre-deployed to Los Angeles International Airport in response to an inbound JetBlue aircraft with a nose gear problem.

The Los Angeles Fire Department was informed that a JetBlue Airbus, with one hundred and forty-five passengers and crew-members departing Bob Hope Airport in Burbank en route to JFK Airport in New York, had discovered a problem with its landing gear.

The pilot was directed to divert to Long Beach Airport for an emergency landing. On a low altitude fly-by at Long Beach Airport, it was quickly ascertained by the tower that the nose gear of the aircraft was not properly in place for a routine landing.

Due to the position of the nose gear at a 90-degree angle and the problem that may ensue upon landing, the aircraft was directed to land at LAX on Runway 25Left, the southern most runway.

At approximately 6:17 p.m. PDT, with LAFD resources strategically place along the runway and staged at a nearby fire station, JetBlue Flight 292 landed safely on runway 25Left amid sparks, smoke, and flames from the burning tires.

All of the passengers and crewmembers were safely evacuated from the aircraft via air stairs and no injuries were reported.
***

STS-134

I'm rather young. A lot of my friends don't even have landlines and have gone cellular only. I keep my landline because one time I was driving on Interstate 580 near San Leandro and observed a desk in the #2 lane. Since this was something that could present a danger to other drivers (especially if a driver doesn't see it in time and swerves), I called 9-1-1 on my cell phone to report it. 5-10 minutes later, I hung up. I forgot which exit the desk was closest to because the CHP Comm didn't answer the phone promptly.

Scubatooth

Im defensive because people who have no grasp or concept of how fire/rescue and EMS works not to mention so far removed from the incident are second and third guessing highly trained individuals who are familiar & experienced with the the procedures and methods of Fire/Rescue and EMS to handle the situation.

If some of the people making comments here were to walk on a scene and make there comments to the incident commander they would find themselves not only getting an earful, but forcibly removed from the scene by LE and under arrest.

The biggest thing that is ground in to every fire/rescue & EMS person from day one in school is "Scene Safety". If you dont evaluate whats going on and just rush in your hurting the effort and likely to add yourself to the victim count.

For example recently had a new deputy in a neighboring county that was sent on a call for a car in the ditch. New deputy found the location and when pulled up, checked on scene with no size up just a car vs pole. The new deputy violated rule 1 (Scene size up/safety) and went straight up to the car and put his hand on the roof. well if he had done a proper size up he would have seen the wire down and laying across the hood. the deputy was electrocuted and by the force of the current held in place and cooked alive. He wasnt discovered for 20 mins when he missed his 5 min status check. That is when another deputy was sent to look for him and had to come from the opposite side if the county. Second deputy pulled on scene with fire and saw what was going on and called dispatch with a scene size up to inform them to call the electric company to shut off the power. The deputy and the driver of the car were both killed. In this incident there would have only been one death (driver of the car who was dead on impact) if the officer had done a proper scene size up and made sure the scene was safe before approaching.

The airport fire station knew within seconds, but cell calls to 911 can be directed where ever depending on the tower they hit and route, at SFO could hit san mateo co communication, CHP or SFFD or others that takes time to do calltaking and then dispatch the closest and most appropriate units.

Okay you were not there, your going off 2nd hand info or farther removed from the situation, and you do not jump the shark and go from 1-3 alarm in 30 seconds unless you are on scene making that call after doing a proper scene size up and safety eval. making that call in the blind is a bad idea and a good way to be first made a fool not only within your organization but by the media, next local politicians and then when done ... terminated

the 6-8 min average is a response time standard from the time the unit is dispatched to when they check on scene.

The problem alot of people suffer from is time distortion in that what they see think in the length of time that has elapsed is much longer then reality. based on all the calls i have taken over many years is the distortion of time is off anywhere from between 5 to 10 times reality.

The reason they ask the questions they do is it part of the standard / protocol for call taking, every call everytime. Its not a local standard but rather an International Standard (IAEMD / NAMED) that is used around the world. Its designed to get the information needed so the right units are dispatched as well as assist the caller with the situation they are facing till help arrives.

1*Address of the emergency
1a*Confirmation of address
2*Callers Phone number (just in case of disconnect or hang up)
2a*Confirmation of Phone number
- yes there is ANI/ALI phone data and location(GPS or physical address from landline) info but we still ask anyways
3* What is going on / nature of injury/illness or mechanism of injury
4*number of victims
5* victims age (if more then 1 victim not asked)
6*Status of consciousness (if more then 1 victim not asked)
7*Status of Breathing (if more then 1 victim not asked)

Then it jumps into Protocol specific questions and this runs the gamut from police, fire and medical incidents.

Every call every time, its not only for consistency but also liability as well as the methodology and protocols have thoroughly be tested and vetted going back to the 70's when Dr Clawson developed them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical...ispatch_System

tommyleo

Great responses, Scubatooth!! ^

I'm tired of all the second-guessers who have no clue about emergency-management procedures.

SWCPHX

As for the people calling 911 from cell phones on the tarmac, here's the thing, if you can call 911 to report additional victims that aren't being attended to in your opinion, walk yourself over to somebody in turnouts and tell them.

blarf

I was relying on the link I pasted to be up to date. Some futzing with DNS later, and here's the proper link:

http://www.caloes.ca.gov/PSC/Pages/S...911/we911.aspx

This is the status of the cutover to local PSAPs in the Bay Area:

http://www.caloes.ca.gov/PSC/Documen...Region0911.pdf

If I'm reading the chart correctly, you cannot reach SFO directly via wireless 911. However, wireless 911 SOME calls are being routed directly to: Belmont PD, Burlingame PD, Foster City PD, Hillsborough (T-Mobile and Metro PCS), Menlo Park PD, Redwood City PD, San Bruno PD, San Mateo PD, South SF PD (not Nextel)... and San Mateo County Communications Department. If I had to take a leap of faith, I'd guess that cell phone providers probably default to San Mateo County Communications Department when they're not cut over directly to the local PD.

I think calling the PSAP directly is a bad idea. Who's going to memorize different numbers for each city they're in? I've seen the instructions (datestamped as late as 2011) indicating one should call SMCCD directly*. I think this is a bit reckless on their part. 911 is designed to be universal and easy to remember. You are guaranteed access to 911 via any cell phone regardless of whether or not it's been activated. You can dial 911 from many phones even if the keypad is locked. As more and more cell towers get cut over to local PSAPs, the load on the CHP call centers will reduce.

Of course, if you, or anyone else wants to know specifics:

* Note that there are different arguments regarding calling SMCCD directly from a landline.

tommyleo

And don't forget, Paul McCartney has been dead since 1967!

Scubatooth

interoperability is a great goal but all things considered is not a easy task by anymeans. slowly everyone has beem shifting to 800DX or motorola turbo (800DX little brother) but its been slow progress.

Just as an example I have friends who are pilots (fixed and rotor wing), flight medic or nurse(s) for North Texas Air Medical Service and they gave me a copy of there radio book its 30 pages of channels/freq and 40 channels/freq a page . That is only from taking the DFW VOR and going a 50 mile radius from there for all the police, fire and ems channels for ground contact. expand to 75miles it doubles and 76-100miles doubles again. It ranges from VHF, UHF, 800mhz and Digital freq/channels.

Then on to your second question.

Considering fire and EMS runs on 24/48 system
Ambulance 2 (1-EMT, 1 Paramedic at min)
Fire truck 3-4 FF per shift, engine might have 4-5 FF, ladder/tiller truck 6-8 FF
--average station has 1 medic and 2 fire trucks, maybe a rescue or or officers car

and for each vehicle you have 3 crews(24/48). As people claim should be on staff you need.

-300 ambulances $250K, and will need to be replaced in every 3-5 years
-30 fire/crash trucks average cost of 150-800K that will need to be replaced every 10 years.

Costs dont include fuel, or upkeep

So 1800 EMT & Paramedics 90-120, Firefighters, trucks, supplies and such .... probably add several hundred to thousands of dollars a ticket just for SFO alone. I dont think travelers would want to pay that for a once in 15-20 years event chance.