Myanmar
 

Hi,

does anybody want to share their experiences about travelling in Myanmar.
We are planning a short trip of 10 days in June.
Wanna do Yangon, Mandalay, Bagan and Inle Lake.
I ve received several different reactions wheather to go or not due to the political and government aspects of the country.

thnx
Martine

If you are not concerned about visiting 99% of other world and "western" countries with various political and governental inclanations, then just don't worry and go.
It is like Thailand and Malaysia used to be 30-40 years ago. No ATMs, no mobiles (governement has secluded network not accessible with our mobiles), but rikshas and old post-war American buses still running. You can find all minimum modern things (hot water and aircon) if you need it.
We did similar itenary 2 years ago ^ ^ ^ and dream to go back again soon. Great people (there are touts but they exist in every Asian country anyway) and lots of history/monuments/temples!
Take Lonely Planet or RTFF and you will find your way there :)

Sure many people will disapprove. I used to wonder the same about Vietnam - and there are many Vietnamese who left after the war who still won't go back. In the end, I just did as much reading as I could and went there in 1993 and have since lived and worked there. My view is that constructive engagement is the best way and through the involvement of international business and to a lesser extent tourism, many of the reforms have become irreversible and a virtuous circle is in place. I don't think I've ever met a VN person that wished foreigners in general weren't there.

But Myanmar is a bit different. Perhaps like VN in the early 1980s - a much more repressive regime. I probably wouldn't go for the simple reason that Aung San Suu Kyi has said that tourists shouldn't visit. She is the closest Burmese people have to a representative leader - having won elections in 1990 which were then ignored by the military government. She subsequently won the Nobel Peace Prize and has spent many years since under house arrest. I would feel a bit uncomfortable about going there against the wishes of such a respected figure and leader of her people.

Some info at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aung_San_Suu_Kyi

and some "anti-tourism stuff" here: http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

Anyway, there is an issue there. I would read up some of the stuff and then make your own judgement. I'm sure if nothing else Burmese people would appreciate people who pitch up with at least some background knowledge.

Certainly in Vietnam I sometimes cringe at some of the crass and ignorant remarks some visiting foreigners come out with. Often people arrive with a daft, close minded point of view, only see stuff that confirms their warped opinion and then leave with everything re-inforced. Only now they are more dangerous - because now they can boast to their friends that "they've seen it for real" and therefore speak with even more authority. Defeats the purpose of travelling if you do so with a closed mind. (But I have an open mind on that!)

Thnx!
Because it is still not ruined by busloads of people we still on the side that we want to go, but reading all the background to make sure ;)

Can you give me some handy tips for the itinerary?

Martine,

I'm glad you're inclined to go^ . I visited last February and can't wait to go back. The places you've mentioned are just right: 1-2 days in Yangon is sufficient. The city is a time capsule itself. Seeing the old (and somewhat unwashed) British colonial buildings is a bit nostalgic. I would not miss Scott Market, the Strand and of course Shwedagon Paya. The Traders is a convenient hotel within walking distance to the Scott Market.

I suggest at least 2 days in Bagan. An early morning hot air ballon ride over the plain dotted with temples is an unforgettable sight. If you have some spare time, take a 2-hour drive to Mount Popa Resort and have lunch there. The view from the Resort (on a mountain top) is really nice.

I find Inle Lake to be most idyllic. Pindaya Cave houses hundreds of Buddha statues and the drive from Pindaya to Inle Lake is very scenic. Spend at least 2 days in the Inle Lake region. You could go on a hiking day trip and take in the beautiful scenery at close range. As for accommodation, if you're noise sensitive, do not stay right on the water. I like both the Lake View Resort and Princess Resort.

Wishing you a great time. IMHO, the locals are very friendly and they are very happy to have visitors from abroad.:)

3 days is fully enough for Yangoon.

we took over-night train (we love rail-travel generally in Asia and much better then buses) to Mandalay. You do have THE attention there as station manager personally sell you the ticket, take you through security barriers to the wagon doors and say goodbye. It was most expensive ($50)and most luxury wagon (within Myanmar public transport) but still a bit rough (if you know Thai or Malaysian 2nd class trains - those ARE better than Yangoon-Mandalay super-grand coupe express train). Large double-bed in the coupe though (plus entry hall, shower cubicle and toilet cubicle - all quite dirty or normal, depending how you measure it). Very slow 15 hour journey (kids jump on and poke into the windows:) ). a bit exotic for 1 time but I would better fly next time. Stock up on food and drinks - it does not stop anywhere (officially) so we starved a bit!

Mandalay is a huge city but I would say 1-1.5 day is enough for it. but dont rush. All main, nice and interesting monuments and temple complexes are spread outside the city (all within 10-15 km from its centre) so 3-4 days would be good to see those without rush. I was not so impressed with Mingun (shown on Lonely Planet guide front page) as by monastir complexes on the hills down the river.

Took a touristy boat (prices are much higher vs local boats so not many locals take it, they could be put off by toilet signs "Foreiner only":mad: ) to Bagan. Whole day trip, wide river and you see bits of life in the villages and fileds around. ok-ish (I heard same 12 hour trip by bus is a torture as roads are bad there).

Bagan is something really really special. I cannot describe it's magnity and shire size. Sunrise or sunset (we woke up and stayed on for all of them!) are absolute majic there. We were there 4 days (incl New Year celebration with local kids singing for us by the open fire!:-: ) and saw pretty everything but I would take even slower pace next time. We used horsecart and this is definately thing to do (try to find horsecart #318, guy with name Wyne - good english and very helpful), or bicycle. We spent the whole week in Angkor this year (just returned) so I would stay for 5-6 days in Bagan next time and just enjoy it slowly. We'll take that baloon ride next time for sure. It is a life-lime experience and you will never forget that sunrise flight over hundreds of temples poking through the fog as sun comes up with orange light.

Took a flight to Inlay lake (planes are actually ok if you take Air Bagan or Air Mandalay) and stayed there for 4 days. Found great local guide Tanzin (he and his wife runs a small pharmacy aka travel office in the main street - please please say him hello from Mish&Kira - we were there in Jan 2006). He took us around on his long-tail boat (he was brilliant to avoid tourist hords and get to best places while nobody was there) to local villages nad local markets, went up to the hills for whole day trek, paddled us around through small channels, took us for lunch to local families and just helped to show how people live. It was a biut chilly in the mornings but ok during the day (Inlay is quite high and remote).

Flew back to Yangoon and then stayed a week on a Thai beach to relax after greatest Asian holidays so far.

I think Myanmar is a gem. People have different views about their government and "regime" but I saw much more police on my return day back to London then in the streets of Myanmar during 15 days. It is safe there, people do respect and like tourists and it was definitely much much safer then in many streets/areas of London or NY. About that political lady - I am not sure that some democratically elected (or skillfully promoted) presidents do the best for their people, countries or world. I have example of Chile (1970s), much of Africa, some Eastern European countries or some other very recent examples of countries where communists or democrats or freedom leaders have had no clue how to manage their country, how to run economy and what to do after election celebration, followed by things turning into nasty civil wars, lootings, killings etc etc. Let is be where we are now and we'll see the future. I want to go back to Myanmar soon rather then hear stories about civil wars, powerless democratically elected leaders or other countries bringing western democracy operations. I wish you visit Myanmar and see it as it is now.

I think this part of your post is ridiculous - you took the trouble to go all the way to Myanmar but it appears you can't even be bothered to refer to "that political lady" by name. I wonder if in pre-reformed South Africa you would have enjoyed a holiday there and referred to Nelson Mandela as "that political gentleman". I doubt whether it was Aung San Suu Kyi's "skillful" promotion that got her a Nobel prize.

Of course you might see "more police in London".... They generally wear uniforms. And the London police are at least attempting to uphold the rule of law - the security authorities in your "gem" of holiday destination have a different function. I'm sure YOU were very safe there - nobody will knock on your door in the middle of the night.

Its true people get mugged and murdered in London, the wrong people get locked up and politicians are sometimes corrupt. But to try and just equate the two systems is just abdicating responsibility.

The reality is that the system is dire there. The only question that remains is whether going there helps perpetuate the system or is likely to improve things. To throw up your hands and say "well things can be bad in London too" as an excuse to dismiss the issue is a great shame, IMHO.

Jimbo99, that is Your opinion and here I just want to say that I find it ridiculously naive. Lets not going to open a debate. I gave my views and you might have yours - we exchanged opinions and I still dont agree with yours.

The fact is you have NOT been to Myanmar (reading it from your "I probably wouldn't go for the simple reason that Aung San Suu Kyi has said that tourists shouldn't visit" which made me laughing - do you really listen to opinion of any politician?). IMHO, she needs to accept that her presidency has failed 16 years ago and she needs to move on rather than reffering to the votes of previous generation. In fact, current Myanmar goverment treats her quite mildly - home arrest is not the worst what could happen and did happen to many other politicians in her situation. Surely it is not nice but I should say it is much much better than how many "democratic" governments treat their political opponents (I can give you dozens of examples from both western and 3rd world).
As for Nelson Mandela, don't we have clear example of political cult here (and I dread Myanmar would go same way). I have been to South Africa several times and I have listed to local people there. And I WOULD go to holidays there while he was in the prison, no problem (dont be ridiculous to start another discussion on this point).

Finally, just to let you know that I originated from the country where "midnight knock on the door" was used for millions of people (including my close relatives) so I know what it is. It is not for you to educate me on this. Take a deep pause and move on with your life now, no need to reply me any further.

I agree with you absolutely. Burma is indeed a gem, and you wont find a more interesting place to visit in Asia.

Many "democratically" elected governments in the third world are far more oppressive and draconian than Burma. Just because certain news does not make it to the front page of the New York Times or the Guardian doesnt mean all is well and fine in these places.

I dont think isolating Burma is going to help the people there who are some of the most friendly and helpful people around (unlike the fake smiles you find at many places). I am amazed certain people would avoid Burma just because a "politician" said tourists should not go there.

Many?

Yes, many.

This is drifting into OMNI land now, so I'll make this my last post on the matter.

I'm sorry you feel "amazed" at my position. The "politician" you refer to is the closest Burmese people have to a leader, and she has been recognised outside Burma too. It appears she is still well supported in Burma too and that's why she's seen as a threat. You mention newspaper headlines. She probably doesn't make them anymore because she's effectively gagged - with no pictures or publicity , newspapers move on to more exciting stuff - and that's why posters here probably can't even remember her name. Its this apparent dismissive attitude that saddens me.

But her request for tourists not visit ranks higher in my book than observations that people smile at you alot and seem pleased to see you. Very few tourists manage to scrape more than the surface of what's going on in a country. Just not speaking the local language and sticking to touristy places is enough to cut you off from what's really going on. Having lived and worked in Vietnam, and speaking Vietnamese, my view of that place is very different from the tourist who takes a week or so to visit the pagodas, Perfume River and Cu Chi tunnels.

I can't agree that many "democratically" elected governments in the third world are far more oppressive and draconian than Burma (whatever "third world" means). But this is beside the point - the concern is to what extent a visiting tourist is making things more or less oppressive, not better.

I'm sure Burma's a "gem" from the point of view of the visitor and I'm sure if the OP goes there she'll have a great time.

As for Mishkira's "Take a deep pause and move on with your life now, no need to reply me any further" - thank you. I don't need your advice either.

For most of us in the third world, economic survival takes precedance over political freedom. Idolise her for all you want, but in my opinion sacrificing the livelihood of thousands of her countrymen as part of her crusade does not make her a saint.

There is quite a large Burmese community spread across SE Asia. Some are students and many are working as construction workers, cooks, waiters etc I suggest you strike up a conversion if you meet one of them before coming to conclusion on a country you have never visited. People from different parts of the world have very different priorities in life and I hope you will eventually realise that in years to come.

For the time being, you may also wish to avoid Thailand.
Oopps...., Thaksin didnt tell us not to visit Thailand nor did he tell us not to invest in Thailand, so I suppose its ok to visit :p

It seems nobody in this thread has spent any serious time in Burma except as a transient traveller. And, since you mentioned it, I do know some Burmese people and they have informed by point of view, as well as some longer term expats.

I suggest people don't ANY make conclusions about a country they've only visited as a tourist or on a business trip.

In the spirit of the thread, perhaps it would be helpful to add "I hope you will eventually realise that in years to come."

Martine, apologies for going off-topic about travel information which you are possibly after (I guess above posts gave you enough views to make your mind about visiting Burma or not, in principal).

If you decide to go and like independent travel, I suggest you to read Lonely Planet guide and forum. Plenty of info there and lots of latest details, trip reports and hints.
If you prefer to travel in a package group (I still think it is worse), then there are travel agents who sell tours to Burma (mostly limited to Yangoon-Baga-Mandalay circle).

For OMNI discission: please make the following text bigger if you are interested in non- travel discussion about Burma

Jimbo99, your last post is good enough but we still have not seen any contribution from yourselves about Burma sights and things to do there (that is purpose of this forum and thread). Do you have anything to contribute to Martine and other people interested in TRAVEL TO Burma?
All your posts were in support of political party and leader that didn't know how to manage their country (incuding military) after elections thus they had lost what they miracly won. I would say, they won elections while nobody in the goevrnment considered them as serious opponents. Well, this things happenned in many countries and sometimes it gets self-corrected after surprises. Take Spain or Chile - it might also give you some thoughts about what was better for their countries in long-term - dictators Franco and Pinochet or communist partisans and Salvador Aliende at al. And lets not start about post-discator Iraq...

As for Aung's representation of Burmese people in 1990... Well, I see interesting picture from the links - she grew up and spent her life abroad since 1965 (living comfortable life in embassies and western countries - I take it she had little clue about her country and real lifes of Burmese people). She came back to Burma in 1988 only. I serously doubt that many Burmese people have had any knowledge about her existance before 1989. Somehow she got wide publicity during 1989 via media campaigns, meetings and demonstrations (it is easy to start popular with demonstarators). Provided the rulers did not consider them seriously (remind me Germany of late 1920s and victory in early 1930s...), they managed to get lots of votes from millions of ordinary people who were not fully happy with their government. The rest is history. Here is my view on how things developed.
Overall, I dont see there is a good ground to say that somebody appearing in the country out of the blue months before elections, would really represent his/her people. It is just easy to promise and give vauge speeches about "freedom" thus winning people hearts.
I do respect her sufferings and struggle all last years (somehow children live in comfortable London though?) but I think she is very naive politically in her peaceful revolution (like Sakharov used to be all his life). On positive side that might keep her alive all these years. I am sorry to say but politics is a dirty game and she had and will have to act stronger to win. But the most serious question (for Burma) is what she will do with the victory and country after celebration day?