WeekendTraveler

In seeing the northbound Crescent's new schedule (leaving Atlanta around 11pm and arriving in NYC at about 6pm), making the train completely impracticable for anyone looking to arrive in the Northeast in time for a full day of work, I checked schedules for flagship overnight trains on routes before Amtrak took over.

Pre-Amtrak railroads seemed to run overnight trains between large population centers so that the train would leave late in the afternoon or in the evening and arrive early in the morning. For example:

* The Crescent would leave the Atlanta-Charlotte region in the afternoon and evening, and it would arrive in NY by 9am. This would work for business travelers, and the train had at least 10 sleeping cars on it (showing that it did work for business travelers).
* The Denver Zephyr would leave Chicago and Denver late in the afternoon, and arrive early in the morning.

There are a lot of other examples.

Amtrak, by comparison, doesn't always have its overnight trains leave large population centers late in the afternoon or in the evening or arrive early in the morning. For example:

* The Crescent will now leave the Atlanta-Charlotte region between 11pm and 5am and arrive in NY by 6pm. Neither large population center is served at a time that is convenient for people who prefer to spend the day working.
* The eastbound California Zephyr leaves Denver around 7pm (which is fine) but arrives in Chicago around 2pm (which is impracticable for anyone who wants to spend the day working).

Question: If Amtrak could set its schedule so that its overnight trains left large population centers in the late afternoon or evening and arrived in large population centers early in the morning, would it affect ridership?

I am thinking that if Amtrak had a tie-in with an airline (for frequent flyer miles and benefits), a consistent business-friendly product (e.g., decent stations and consistent on-board service) and times that would result in trips between large business/population centers leaving in the evening and arriving early in the morning, it could certainly have a material and positive impact on passenger numbers. I don't see Amtrak ever becoming the #1 way to travel between, say, Atlanta and NY, but even with bad schedules and inconsistent service, it fills the sleeping cars that it has; assuming sleeping cars are more profitable than coaches, focusing on business travel service and schedules could increase sleeping car business, but by how much?

Thanks.

AndyPatterson

Interesting comparison with the pre-Amtrak schedules -- that's from 50 years ago! I suspect that Amtrak realized that nearly all of its long-haul traffic are vacationers, retirees doing the twice-yearly Florida shuttle, college students, etc. I just don't see the demand for 10 sleeping cars filled with business travelers on any of these routes.

fastflyer

Ironically, the one train that makes money, the Autotrain, leaves Orlando at 4pm and arrives in DC at 9am. These timings would be great for business, except all of its users are hauling a car, so clearly not going to an office. LOL

I have occasionally booked an Amtrak bedroom when the timings work for me (example: Albuquerque-Kansas City). Denver to Omaha also comes to mind. I think there is significant passenger traffic Chicago-Minneapolis, although not work related. Just traveling between those cities without an overnight.

Ideally, Amtrak should operate on more business-friendly schedules. But their overwhelming market at this time includes retirees and those who refuse to travel by air.

Long Train Runnin

I would have to say that it won't work regardless of timing.

All you have to do is look to Europe. There are plenty of perfectly timed overnight trains from major European cities and they are disappearing more and more.

They were even pre-COVID-19 disappearing due to a lack of ridership.

I just don't think you are going to find many biz people that are trying to be "time efficient" doing anything other than getting in a car or on an airplane.

WeekendTraveler

Thanks, everyone.

To rephrase my question:

Since Amtrak fills its sleeping cars pretty well even with schedules that don't minimize daytime hours spent on the train, and with inconsistent on-board services and inconsistent station quality, and since sleeping cars are presumably profitable, if Amtrak adjusted its schedules so that overnight trains left major population centers in the evening and arrived in major population centers in the early morning, wouldn't sleeping car ridership (from all types of customers) and profits materially increase?

It is true that European night trains disappeared in large part, but recently they've been expanding (see, e.g., Nightjet).

Long Train Runnin

Well I think the rub just showed itself.

There is no profits being made on the long distance sleeper trains.

Amtrak only makes money "above the rails" on the NEC and some short state corridors.

Even there if you consider the capital costs they are not making money.

Adding more sleepers will just add more loses.

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WeekendTraveler

Yes, the long distance trains don't make money, but they have so much overhead and other fixed costs (principally stations, fuel and insurance) that overwhelm ticket revenues. If Amtrak just adds a sleeping car and sells most of the rooms in it, that is marginally profitable and reduces the train's overall loss. So expanding sleeping car patronage should help Amtrak's bottom line. And if Amtrak can't make money by offering a high-revenue product to high-income customers, there's just no hope.

Long Train Runnin

There is no hope for profitable long distance trains in the United States and 99% of the world when you factor in capital costs.

Also, if you look at the data and congressional testimony the real money looser isn't the sleepers or the coaches it's the dining cars and the staff needed to run them.

Adding more sleepers with meals included just adds to the issue honestly. Although, I suppose you can argue in your sleeper focused on the business man he would skip the meals and just sleep.

WeekendTraveler

Yes, you are correct: the long-distance trains won't become profitable.

But adding high-revenue sleeping cars helps reduce that.

Dining cars lose money, but Amtrak's Flexible Dining has reduced those losses, and dining car losses were in part variable based on how many sleeping car-related costs Amtrak would assign to them.

CMK10

I've considered taking Amtrak from Greensboro to Atlanta for work trips as the scheduled arrival is at 8:13 AM but I've been through enough Amtrak delays that I don't want to chance something going wrong. I stick to the shorter routes for business trips (Greensboro to Charlotte is particularly pleasant).

garykung

It won't work.

Keep in mind - Amtrak does not own most of the tracks. So Amtrak has to work around others. Hence, the difficulty in scheduling.

hhdl

Hub/hub and focus-city/hub pairs: doubtful
But outstation-outstation pairs: definitely.

I'd expect South Bend to Rochester (nighttime departures and morning arrival for both) on the LSL is good for a few hundred sleeper fares a year (maybe some students, but faculty and business probably account for more), since the airline routings through ORD/DTW/PHL?/CLT? aren't particularly appealing.

The schedules should probably try to be consistent in both directions about where they spend the midnight-6am hours (i.e. schedule the meets for 3am and 3pm local time). Schedule adherence is still a problem.