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Amtrak Cascades Train 501 Derails Off Interstate 5 Overpass near DuPont, WA

Amtrak Cascades Train 501 Derails Off Interstate 5 Overpass near DuPont, WA

Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:28 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by TheBOSman
Apologies for the imprecise wording on my part. I clarify that "new" in this context refers to their new use for revenue Amtrak runs, and a "new" alignment for Amtrak Cascade service.
No problem. Indeed it appears theyve spent a lot of money on the old route. Back in my youth it was basically a spur line that serviced a now closed Navy supply depot, McChord AFB, Fort Lewis, and probably the old dynamite plant at DuPont. After the Vietnam war it fell into light use but in recent years had been at least partially renovated for light commuter use.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:44 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by flitcraft
The curve where the train derailed, though, is posted 30 for both freight and passenger trains.
One of the commentators on local TV (evidently a former NTSB person) confirmed it's a 30 mph curve, and the location of the lead engine (the one on the ground) says it looks (superficially) to him like an obvious overspeed situation

Just announced (10 seconds ago) that the death toll is going to rise; they haven't gone into two cars because they're deemed unsafe for the first responders.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:51 pm
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Originally Posted by Randyk47
No problem. Indeed it appears they’ve spent a lot of money on the old route.
Not enough for PTC? Or was it installed but not in use?

In a conference call with reporters, Amtrak President and Co-CEO Richard Anderson said “Positive Train Control” was not activated on the tracks at the time of the derailment. Positive Train Control is a technology that automatically slows down, and eventually stops, a train if it senses the train is going too fast and could derail or get in an accident.
(Wick's probably glad he only has 13 days left....)
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Gardyloo
they haven't gone into two cars because they're deemed unsafe for the first responders.

Pierce County Sheriffs Office spokesman Ed Troyer said 13 of 14 train cars derailed in the crash, and "there are a couple of [train] cars that are not safe enough to search."

"We know that theres nobody alive in them at this point, but there are some other fatals that we are probably going to find," Troyer said.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 2:16 pm
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Originally Posted by CPRich
Not enough for PTC? Or was it installed but not in use?



(Wick's probably glad he only has 13 days left....)
Going to be some heavy explaining for not using the PTC if it was indeed installed. Amtrak is going to bite the big one on this one if thats true.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 2:29 pm
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Originally Posted by Randyk47


Going to be some heavy explaining for not using the PTC if it was indeed installed. Amtrak is going to bite the big one on this one if thats true.
There should be some very heavy explaining even if PTC wasn't installed and it turns out to be an overspeed case -- it's 2017, and we have readily available technology to eliminate this particular human failure. There's no excuse for not deploying it on vehicles that carry dozens to hundreds of passengers, especially ones (like trains) that are on fixed known-path tracks. I felt the same way after the 2015 Port Richmond derailment. Humans get distracted, lose situational awareness, even fall asleep when they don't mean to, and this is a place where technology can and should be saving lives.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 2:34 pm
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Originally Posted by jmastron
There should be some very heavy explaining even if PTC wasn't installed and it turns out to be an overspeed case -- it's 2017, and we have readily available technology to eliminate this particular human failure. There's no excuse for not deploying it on vehicles that carry dozens to hundreds of passengers, especially ones (like trains) that are on fixed known-path tracks. I felt the same way after the 2015 Port Richmond derailment. Humans get distracted, lose situational awareness, even fall asleep when they don't mean to, and this is a place where technology can and should be saving lives.
If this is failing to slow for 30 mph for a curve in an otherwise-79 mph zone, it's particularly striking that it happened on literally the first revenue run for this new section of track. I would think the engineer would be particularly aware in this situation. That said, one could also speculate that the engineer and/or Amtrak were particularly eager to demonstrate the speed gains of this new section of track. I'm sure the NTSB investigation will shed some light, but it doesn't look good even ignoring PTC: if the mistake is failing to follow speed limits through a sharp curve, that sounds like inadequate training and preparation for the new route whether or not PTC would have helped. But we really don't know what happened yet, so I'm wary of believing what I type here.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 2:42 pm
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According to a press release:

WSDOT purchased 8 new state-of-the-art Siemens Charger locomotives to pull Washington-state sponsored Amtrak Cascades trains. ... started running on the Amtrak Cascades corridor in November 2017.
...

This "next generation" rail equipment features safety upgrades, including on-board positive trian control system, which will automatically stop the train when there are dangerous situations on the rails, once the system is activated corridor-wide in 2018.
On the trains but wayside equipment wasn't installed yet? Or just not turned on/using it?

How many lives would that 12/31/2015 deadline now have saved?
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 3:14 pm
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Zero, because even with the current deadline as it is does not give enough time for procurement, installation, and testing. The current deadline is a "progress" deadline, meaning that some predefined amount of progress needs to be made by the deadline, not full installation.

When the requirement went into place, there were no off-the-shelf scalable PTC systems available to simply purchase, install, and use. Even as PTC is being installed now, it's a "lets put it in and see what happens" type of installation. But I do have to mention that without the requirement to install PTC, and without deadlines, it will never get done.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 3:28 pm
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Originally Posted by diburning
When the requirement went into place, there were no off-the-shelf scalable PTC systems available to simply purchase, install, and use. Even as PTC is being installed now, it's a "lets put it in and see what happens" type of installation. But I do have to mention that without the requirement to install PTC, and without deadlines, it will never get done.
I'm curious about thismy understanding was that at least China (CTCS) and Japan (D-ATC) have had full implementations of PTC available since the mid 00s, which they've also sold and deployed in other countries.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 3:29 pm
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MrsCP's company was selling PTC solutions at least 8 years ago. She flew around the world meeting with rail companies, but not much in the US. Congress passed the requirement in 2008, IIRC. Sounds similar to the case of US car companies complaining that fuel economy standards were impossible to meet, fighting them in Congress, while Japanese companies just went ahead and met them.


Originally Posted by javabytes
The inaugural run of Amtrak Cascades Train 501 derailed and fell off a bridge over Interstate 5 near DuPont,

......
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Just curious - what's to "like" about a train crash post?
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 4:08 pm
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Those images are scary. Wow.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 4:17 pm
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For those of us that don't work in the field, what is PTC? I did google, but I still don't know.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 4:21 pm
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Originally Posted by Scifience
I'm curious about thismy understanding was that at least China (CTCS) and Japan (D-ATC) have had full implementations of PTC available since the mid 00s, which they've also sold and deployed in other countries.
The whole of Europe also uses ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System) in almost all high speed lines.
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Old Dec 18, 2017, 4:24 pm
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Originally Posted by Traveller
For those of us that don't work in the field, what is PTC? I did google, but I still don't know.
PTC = Positive Train Control. Google that term and that will give you an idea of what it does.
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