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Purchase protection denied - "reasonably safeguarded"

Purchase protection denied - "reasonably safeguarded"

Old Jun 29, 20, 2:07 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by garykung View Post
I seriously doubt that a reasonable person, which is the golden legal standard, will agree that an unlocked bike is reasonable.
An unchained bicycle certainly can be reasonably safeguarded, for example if the bicycle is inside the policyholder's home. That is why the circumstance and the evidence is important. I carry bicycle-specific insurance for my bicycles because they are too expensive to be covered by homeowners and every policy I have ever had has covered unchained bicycles in some given circumstance. The least restrictive policy I ever had only required that the bicycle be chained when left in a public place. I wound up having to file a claim under that policy when that bike was taken from a locked storage room in a condo building I used to live in. The insurance company tried to decline the claim on the basis that it was a public place because it was a shared storage room even though the condo security cameras captured the thief forcing entry into the storage. I guess that tells you all you need to know about insurance companies and I suspect AMEX is no different. An administrator from the underwriter contacted me directly to pay out the claim after I threatened to sue.

The other thing to keep in mind is that chaining a bicycle is not a be-all end-all either. Give a thief enough time and they will be able to get through any chain/lock. Some of the cheap locks can be undone in seconds and with as innocuous a tool as a ballpoint pen. Check youtube if you do not believe. To me, using a cheap lock/chain in a high-crime area might very well be less "reasonably safeguarded" than an unlocked bike in @wmz shared garage, again, depending on the circumstance and the evidence.
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Old Jun 29, 20, 10:33 am
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by LAX_Esq View Post
Complain. If you don't get anywhere, you could consider suing them in small claims court. They might cave rather than having to waste time and money defending this -- and potentially face bad PR. **NOT LEGAL ADVICE**
If you do this, even if they back down or you win in small claims, expect this path to lead to Amex severing their business relationship with you permanently - closing all your cards and never allowing you to hold a card with them again. I would think "once sued us in court" is going to be about as black a mark as a customer can get with any large company. They're not going to want to do future business.
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Old Jun 29, 20, 10:35 am
  #33  
mia
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Originally Posted by captaindomon View Post
.... "once sued us in court" ....
I would sue the insurer, not the card issuer.
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Old Jun 29, 20, 10:37 am
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Funny... three pages of lawyers or pretend-lawyers arguing with each other based on incomplete information, and the OP hasn’t returned since originally starting this thread to clarify, for example, if the bike was locked at all.
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Old Jun 29, 20, 11:18 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by strife View Post
An unchained bicycle certainly can be reasonably safeguarded, for example if the bicycle is inside the policyholder's home.
This is obviously not the case here. Hence, there is no need to focus this. Beside - if stored inside your home, I would consider that as reasonable safeguard, chain or no chain.

Originally Posted by strife View Post
I carry bicycle-specific insurance for my bicycles because they are too expensive to be covered by homeowners and every policy I have ever had has covered unchained bicycles in some given circumstance...
This is obviously not the case here as well...especially when your insurance may cover different perils in comparison to the purchase protection. For instance, AMEX has specified that the benefit is an excess, i.e. secondary, coverage. But your bike insurance was/is most likely a primary insurance.

For now - we still don't know whether OP carries rental insurance, although this was not asked.

Originally Posted by captaindomon View Post
If you do this, even if they back down or you win in small claims, expect this path to lead to Amex severing their business relationship with you permanently - closing all your cards and never allowing you to hold a card with them again. I would think "once sued us in court" is going to be about as black a mark as a customer can get with any large company. They're not going to want to do future business.
Major corporations do not usually take retaliatory actions.

Originally Posted by notquiteaff View Post
Funny... three pages of lawyers or pretend-lawyers arguing with each other based on incomplete information, and the OP hasnít returned since originally starting this thread to clarify, for example, if the bike was locked at all.
It is an insurance question, not a legal one yet.
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Old Jun 29, 20, 6:47 pm
  #36  
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Wow, definitely didn't expect such a lively debate from this - thanks for your responses, everyone. It seems that while most poeple agree with Amex, some people would interpret my actions as "reasonably secure". I'll at least try to appeal via a letter. I won't bother going through with small claims court for this - worst case, it's a learning experience that will hopefully save me more than $500 in the future. I'll update this thread when I hear back from Amex.

Clarifications:
  • I moved from the Bay Area to LA recently, and the property crime rate in my area seems to be about 33% lower than SF, but I guess it's not a huge difference
  • The bike was not locked, but I was going off of the "other people store stuff there" guide for "reasonable"
  • I don't have renter's insurance
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Old Jun 29, 20, 7:04 pm
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Originally Posted by captaindomon View Post
If you do this, even if they back down or you win in small claims, expect this path to lead to Amex severing their business relationship with you permanently - closing all your cards and never allowing you to hold a card with them again. I would think "once sued us in court" is going to be about as black a mark as a customer can get with any large company. They're not going to want to do future business.
Is this your speculation, or can you point to any examples/facts/threads of Amex closing all cards on the basis of someone filing small claims suit against them?
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Old Jun 30, 20, 12:38 am
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Originally Posted by garykung View Post
This is obviously not the case here. Hence, there is no need to focus this.
The point is that nothing is obvious when vague and generic legal terms are used, hence why circumstance is important. Nevertheless you seem intent on arguing just for the sake of arguing so no point to continue further.
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Old Jun 30, 20, 11:48 am
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Originally Posted by wmz View Post
  • I don't have renter's insurance
I know I'm now off-topic, but I strongly encourage you to get a liability renters policy, even if your landlord does not require one. My renter's liability-only policy was $106 a year, a good investment even though it wouldn't have helped with your bike.
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Old Jun 30, 20, 12:53 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by strife View Post
An unchained bicycle certainly can be reasonably safeguarded, for example if the bicycle is inside the policyholder's home. That is why the circumstance and the evidence is important. I carry bicycle-specific insurance for my bicycles because they are too expensive to be covered by homeowners and every policy I have ever had has covered unchained bicycles in some given circumstance. The least restrictive policy I ever had only required that the bicycle be chained when left in a public place. I wound up having to file a claim under that policy when that bike was taken from a locked storage room in a condo building I used to live in. The insurance company tried to decline the claim on the basis that it was a public place because it was a shared storage room even though the condo security cameras captured the thief forcing entry into the storage. I guess that tells you all you need to know about insurance companies and I suspect AMEX is no different. An administrator from the underwriter contacted me directly to pay out the claim after I threatened to sue.

The other thing to keep in mind is that chaining a bicycle is not a be-all end-all either. Give a thief enough time and they will be able to get through any chain/lock. Some of the cheap locks can be undone in seconds and with as innocuous a tool as a ballpoint pen. Check youtube if you do not believe. To me, using a cheap lock/chain in a high-crime area might very well be less "reasonably safeguarded" than an unlocked bike in @wmz shared garage, again, depending on the circumstance and the evidence.
I have a high 4 figure custom bike that has it's own agreed value policy, and it is unchained. In my kitchen.
That said, I wouldn't think keeping it unlocked in a shared garage (or even a private garage -- garages aren't that secure) particularly if it is shared with more than 2-3 people.
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Old Jun 30, 20, 12:56 pm
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Originally Posted by Gig103 View Post
I know I'm now off-topic, but I strongly encourage you to get a liability renters policy, even if your landlord does not require one. My renter's liability-only policy was $106 a year, a good investment even though it wouldn't have helped with your bike.
Agreed. If you live in a litigious state like CA and have assets of any sort, a liability-only renter's policy is essential.
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Old Jun 30, 20, 3:17 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by LAX_Esq View Post
Is this your speculation, or can you point to any examples/facts/threads of Amex closing all cards on the basis of someone filing small claims suit against them?
I will be honest and admit that this is just my speculation, but is fairly common for example, with insurance companies (if you sue them, they will no longer renew your coverage.)

Originally Posted by garykung View Post
Major corporations do not usually take retaliatory actions.
IANAL, but you have no legal right to continue to have an open Amex card. The company has the right to decide who they do business with. Retaliatory actions is a term usually only used in the context of employment law, if you are legally discriminated against. If you sue your local restaurant, and they refuse to allow you to eat there any more, that's not "retaliation" in a legal sense.
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Old Jun 30, 20, 3:49 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by captaindomon View Post
Retaliatory actions is a term usually only used in the context of employment law, if you are legally discriminated against.
While it is a commonly used term in the employment context, it is not a specialized term just for employment. At the minimum, this is not a legal term, but a plain language term. Black's Dictionary has not defined such or related terms just for employment.

Originally Posted by captaindomon View Post
If you sue your local restaurant, and they refuse to allow you to eat there any more, that's not "retaliation" in a legal sense.
Actually, it is, as the refusal is against public policy.

However, if the lawsuit is friolous, that will be another story.
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