COVID-19 related disputes

Old Aug 27, 20, 9:29 am
  #31  
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FWIW, since I started this thread, I'll answer back my experience. In June, my dispute with Aeromexico was ruled in my favor. In July, Amex changed their minds and re-applied both charges. I re-disputed/appealed the next day, and was given a "final" (i.e. "we will not consider this any further") rejection about 10 days later. I have since ended my relationship with American Express.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 9:35 am
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by GoAmtrak View Post
I won a fairly sizable chargeback dispute ($500+ USD) against MyStays Hotels for failing to issue an acknowledged valid refund after 90+ days. Well, another 60 days later, MyStays issued the refund too. Should I expect AmEx to claw back one of these? I don't want ill-gotten gains, but I also don't want to call if it might mess up an automatic process and cause me to lose both credits.
I had a different type of charge back a year ago that dealt with izettle, long story short, don't call. Just let it all fall into place on its own or you'll just be making the problem even worse even though you have good intentions as I did. Leave it be.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 10:33 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by GoAmtrak View Post
I won a fairly sizable chargeback dispute ($500+ USD) against MyStays Hotels for failing to issue an acknowledged valid refund after 90+ days. Well, another 60 days later, MyStays issued the refund too. Should I expect AmEx to claw back one of these? I don't want ill-gotten gains, but I also don't want to call if it might mess up an automatic process and cause me to lose both credits.
I had a similar situation with an airline refund, larger amount. When the airline eventually refunded back to my card (much to my surprise - haha), I just called AmEx and told them what happened, and they reversed the dispute refund. So in the end it all worked out as expected.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 11:13 am
  #34  
 
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I instituted a chargeback against StubHub, as it changed its customer "guarantee" some time in mid-March and refused to refund for cancelled performances, now offering only a "coupon" valid through the end of 2021. Amex initially reversed the charge, then reinstated it a few months later, pursuant to StubHub's response that the charge was valid because I was provided a coupon pursuant to its March 2020 terms revisions (the purchase was made in fall of 2019 when StubHub guaranteed a cash refund for cancelled performances).

As proof, StubHub submitted an illegible copy of its T&Cs. When I contacted Amex, they acknowledged the copy they received was also illegible, but that there was "nothing they could do" because those were the vendor's stated terms. This certainly seemed like an appropriate situation for a chargeback to me, but StubHub has aggressively responded to chargebacks, BBB complaints, etc. by asserting it can change its terms whenever it wants and they are effective as to the date of the scheduled event and not the date of customer purchase.
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Old Aug 27, 20, 12:57 pm
  #35  
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Originally Posted by trouble747 View Post
....asserting it can change its terms whenever it wants and they are effective as to the date of the scheduled event and not the date of customer purchase.
The companies taking this approach are buying time and would likely file for bankruptcy protection if required to refund everyone "now", because they do not have sufficient cash, There is litigation in process, as I am sure you are aware:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/corona...-to-california
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Old Aug 27, 20, 1:53 pm
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by mia View Post
The companies taking this approach are buying time and would likely file for bankruptcy protection if required to refund everyone "now", because they do not have sufficient cash
That's probably true; Stubhub engaged in risky business practices that gave it significant advantage over its competitors in the ticket "resale" (scalping) marketplace.

There is litigation in process, as I am sure you are aware:
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/corona...-to-california
Yes (though I wasn't aware they had been consolidated.)
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Old Aug 28, 20, 1:03 pm
  #37  
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I'm a few months into a dispute with Copa Air. I bought two one-way tickets back in February, San Francisco to Cartagena in October. Copa cancelled the flight in May. Nothing on the Copa website indicated any way to put in for a refund, so I disputed the charge with Amex.

In July, I got a rejection from Amex. Copa claimed that my ticket was nonrefundable, and that as of then, the Panamanian government had not ordered any cessation of flights for October. Oddly enough, that actually bolsters my charge dispute with Amex, since Copa itself is saying that the Panamanian government is not forcing them to cancel flights in October.

I reopened the Amex dispute, this time uploading the May email in which Copa informed me of the flight cancellation for the October flight. I also uploaded a screenshot of the Copa reservations website, indicating that they have no flights from San Francisco to Cartagena on the date of my original itinerary. I also uploaded a screenshot of the USDOT's regulations that require airlines to refund fares paid when they cancel flights, even if the ticket is nonrefundable.

Fingers crossed that the second time does the trick.
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Old Aug 28, 20, 6:34 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by dhuey View Post
I.... also uploaded a screenshot of the USDOT's regulations that require airlines to refund fares paid when they cancel flights, even if the ticket is nonrefundable.
Did you file a complaint with DOT?
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Old Aug 28, 20, 7:24 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mia View Post
Did you file a complaint with DOT?
Not yet. I think my next step will be small claims if Amex rejects my dispute.
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Old Aug 28, 20, 7:26 pm
  #40  
 
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Yes, and they may lose a 13 year Platinum member (spending over $100K+ per year) as a result. I disputed a Ticketmaster charge because the event was "postponed" with no specific date provided. Ticketmaster responded no refunds and they closed the dispute. During this time they started offering refunds for a limited period of time, but I could not take advantage because I already had a dispute in process. I started looking at their dispute policies and noticed that they're wooing new merchants by limiting consumer protections. I asked to be transferred to the retention line just to make a point and they offered me 30,000 points to stay for one year. I refused the points, don't want them; I want my problem solved.

This has me thinking, could I quit my job and start selling tickets for concerts that will never happen "because Covid?" It sounds way more lucrative than actual work.
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Old Aug 28, 20, 11:46 pm
  #41  
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I don't know if the numbers back this up, but my guess is that Visa/MC cardholders are more likely to win charge disputes than Amex cardholders. Businesses pretty much have to accept Visa/MC. There are some Amex-only businesses out there, not many are comfortable turning away Visa/MC. Accepting Amex, however, is a decision that can go either way for most businesses. Amex's interests are thus more skewed to siding with merchants in these disputes. Sure, they don't want to lose a cardholder, but they really don't want to lose a merchant.
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Old Oct 5, 20, 6:48 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by aabbcc View Post
I just had Amex US close a dispute and issue credit for a canceled flight where the airline offered future credit. However, Amex did say that the merchant has until July to respond, and I could get rebilled for the charge.
Originally Posted by angra View Post
FWIW, since I started this thread, I'll answer back my experience. In June, my dispute with Aeromexico was ruled in my favor. In July, Amex changed their minds and re-applied both charges. I re-disputed/appealed the next day, and was given a "final" (i.e. "we will not consider this any further") rejection about 10 days later. I have since ended my relationship with American Express.
I had the same experience with Air Canada - the details are in the master COVID cancellation thread on the AC forum (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-...n-lawsuit.html), and also my DOT complaint (https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=DOT-OST-2020-0074), but here's the gist of it:

In August of 2019, I purchased one way DTW-YYZ-YVR for 2020/05/22 for 3 passengers, each of which got charged separately.

In early April, they canceled both flights, and in fact suspended service to DTW entirely. This was blamed on "government regulations", even though Delta has continued to operate DTW-YYZ service this entire time.

A few weeks later, I saw the DOT notice, and requested a refund from AC citing it. The website said to allow 6 to 8 weeks, so when 8 weeks passed without a response, I filed a chargeback (actually 3 - one for each ticket) and the DOT complaint. AmEx applied temporary credits.

Unrelated to the chargeback but worth mentioning: Air Canada filed essentially the same reply to my DOT complaint as to the others: "complainant has no standing" (huh?) and that non-refundable tickets will only be refunded for cancellations "within the airline's control" (which was added to the terms and conditions on January 6 of this year and thus does not apply. AC agreed that the tariff at the time of purchase applies, which was that a refund will be provided in the event of a cancellation for any reason if the passenger no longer wishes to travel.).

In August, AmEx received a response from AC (basically just saying the ticket is non-refundable and showing that I agreed to the terms and conditions, but not actually showing what those terms and conditions were) and reversed the credit. I don't blame AmEx here; they were acting on the information they were given.

Here's the kicker - I reopened the disputes (there's a link to do so, with one of the selectable reasons being "I have additional information not already provided") and submitted a comment that I acknowledge the tickets were non-refundable, but that only means the passenger can't cancel for a refund, not that a refund wouldn't be owed if the airline cancels. This is affirmed by both DOT and Air Canada's own terms and conditions (both of which I attached, with references to the relevant paragraphs). Approximately 2 weeks later, AmEx replied to all 3 appeals separately: one of which they sided with my and closed, one if which they kept open pending a response from the merchant, and one of which they closed in AC's favor with the comment "the merchant has already justified its position and we are not in a position to investigate this further". After years of positive experiences, I must say I'm really disappointed in American Express on this one. Why have the option to reopen a dispute with additional information if they won't consider it?
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Old Oct 8, 20, 4:59 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by strickerj View Post
I had the same experience with Air Canada - the details are in the master COVID cancellation thread on the AC forum (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-...n-lawsuit.html), and also my DOT complaint (https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=DOT-OST-2020-0074), but here's the gist of it:

In August of 2019, I purchased one way DTW-YYZ-YVR for 2020/05/22 for 3 passengers, each of which got charged separately.

In early April, they canceled both flights, and in fact suspended service to DTW entirely. This was blamed on "government regulations", even though Delta has continued to operate DTW-YYZ service this entire time.

A few weeks later, I saw the DOT notice, and requested a refund from AC citing it. The website said to allow 6 to 8 weeks, so when 8 weeks passed without a response, I filed a chargeback (actually 3 - one for each ticket) and the DOT complaint. AmEx applied temporary credits.

Unrelated to the chargeback but worth mentioning: Air Canada filed essentially the same reply to my DOT complaint as to the others: "complainant has no standing" (huh?) and that non-refundable tickets will only be refunded for cancellations "within the airline's control" (which was added to the terms and conditions on January 6 of this year and thus does not apply. AC agreed that the tariff at the time of purchase applies, which was that a refund will be provided in the event of a cancellation for any reason if the passenger no longer wishes to travel.).

In August, AmEx received a response from AC (basically just saying the ticket is non-refundable and showing that I agreed to the terms and conditions, but not actually showing what those terms and conditions were) and reversed the credit. I don't blame AmEx here; they were acting on the information they were given.

Here's the kicker - I reopened the disputes (there's a link to do so, with one of the selectable reasons being "I have additional information not already provided") and submitted a comment that I acknowledge the tickets were non-refundable, but that only means the passenger can't cancel for a refund, not that a refund wouldn't be owed if the airline cancels. This is affirmed by both DOT and Air Canada's own terms and conditions (both of which I attached, with references to the relevant paragraphs). Approximately 2 weeks later, AmEx replied to all 3 appeals separately: one of which they sided with my and closed, one if which they kept open pending a response from the merchant, and one of which they closed in AC's favor with the comment "the merchant has already justified its position and we are not in a position to investigate this further". After years of positive experiences, I must say I'm really disappointed in American Express on this one. Why have the option to reopen a dispute with additional information if they won't consider it?
To follow-up on my experience, after initially closing the dispute in my favor, Amex eventually re-billed me for the charge since the airline responded that they had offered a travel credit, which Amex deemed to be a satisfactory resolution. I reopened the dispute online and provided a copy of the airline CoC, but Amex again closed the dispute in favor of the merchant. At this point, I tried calling, but the Amex phone representative essentially told me not to expect to see my money again. Unfortunately, since the flight was wholly international, we were not protected by DOT regulations. I subsequently filed a complaint with the CFPB (for goods not received), and Amex has now reopened the case and issued a credit while they investigate further, so we'll see where this goes...
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Old Oct 9, 20, 12:20 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by aabbcc View Post
To follow-up on my experience, after initially closing the dispute in my favor, Amex eventually re-billed me for the charge since the airline responded that they had offered a travel credit, which Amex deemed to be a satisfactory resolution. I reopened the dispute online and provided a copy of the airline CoC, but Amex again closed the dispute in favor of the merchant. At this point, I tried calling, but the Amex phone representative essentially told me not to expect to see my money again. Unfortunately, since the flight was wholly international, we were not protected by DOT regulations. I subsequently filed a complaint with the CFPB (for goods not received), and Amex has now reopened the case and issued a credit while they investigate further, so we'll see where this goes...
Good to know. My experience was essentially the same except that I didn't bother calling after AmEx sided with Air Canada the second time, figuring it'd be a waste of time. Thing is, my flight was under the jurisdiction of DOT (U.S. to Canada one-way), and purchased when Air Canada's tariff called for refunds for any cancellations. AmEx completely ignored that. As I mentioned, I've got 2 of the 3 disputes still open, so I'll see where those go before doing anything about this one. Any risk to your AmEx standing by going through CFBP?
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Old Oct 9, 20, 12:38 pm
  #45  
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Originally Posted by aabbcc View Post
To follow-up on my experience, after initially closing the dispute in my favor, Amex eventually re-billed me for the charge since the airline responded that they had offered a travel credit, which Amex deemed to be a satisfactory resolution. I reopened the dispute online and provided a copy of the airline CoC, but Amex again closed the dispute in favor of the merchant. At this point, I tried calling, but the Amex phone representative essentially told me not to expect to see my money again. Unfortunately, since the flight was wholly international, we were not protected by DOT regulations. I subsequently filed a complaint with the CFPB (for goods not received), and Amex has now reopened the case and issued a credit while they investigate further, so we'll see where this goes...
I had not considered CFPB, can you maybe give a high level overview of how you submitted, what they are like, etc?
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