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Confusing Nature of MR Points and Benefits of Gold Card

Confusing Nature of MR Points and Benefits of Gold Card

Old Apr 4, 2019, 2:45 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by krazykanuck

I'm flying r/t from the US to Asia in biz later this month on EVA, ANA, and back Asiana for 95k MR points. You can't do that with UR transfer partners. You just can't. You find the Gold card to be a hassle, I find it to be a Gold Mine of MR points. To each their own... and I say that as somebody with as many Chase cards as Amex cards
I think the best value I got from an Amex was on my plat under the old IAP program. I wanted to get four passengers roundtrip from the US to Asia in J. It was high season and my dates were constrained, so the lowest roundtrip tickets were in the range of $16k total for restricted, non-refundable tickets. The IAP got me the 4 tickets for $10k, and fully flexible and refundable at that. Nothing in the Chase family can come close, I would happily trade 48000 points for $6000 in my pocket, any day of the week.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 2:47 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by sethMCOflyer
First, I call BS on there being a difference. ... I totally agree that there's a lot of upside with Amex on the travel partners, but that's all they have going for them as far as MR goes. If you're not maximizing the value of your points on a transpacific flight in an upper cabin, you're really losing. You have to spend in certain ways (through their portal for hotels), make sure to use your food or uber credit each month, and then redeem your points for those tickets, otherwise it's a bad deal.
I see complaints all the time on reddit and here of people complaining that the Chase travel portal shows inflated prices vs. the actual expedia website. Personally I don't book through the Chase portal, so I don't really care, but I wouldn't count on getting the best price 100% of the time. Here is one and two links, just from the past few weeks.

As for Amex, I only use my MR for intl J/F. I pretty much only use my Plat card for airfare. I only use my Gold card for dining and grocery stores. Their game, their rules, but that doesn't mean I can't play by them and take advantage. Plus I live in NYC where seemingly every restaurant is on Grubhub/seamless, and I walk past a Shake Shack on my way home, so it's not like using the $10 credit a month is hard.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 2:58 pm
  #18  
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Complexity is our friend. I daresay American Express's average redemption cost per point is lower than Chase's cost, and this allows American Express to offer more value to those who are sufficiently engaged to find it. I consider this good program design.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 3:07 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by sethMCOflyer
First, I call BS on there being a difference. That poster seems to be using a very small sample size and isn't actually comparing to Expedia (read their previous posts) except in one instance when they were comparing pretax costs at a hotel, they should get the after tax prices and compare.

Second, if there is a 10% discount we're still at 0.0136 cents per point compared to Amex at half of that.
The first comment you are dead wrong.

What you see on the first showing of UR pricing is also PRE TAX. You just need to compare that with what Expedia shows - apple to apple so to speak - before select your choice - THEN you will see what your REAL INCLUSIVE PRICE on the UR booking - Guess what? In a hotel booking, it not only adds Taxes, but often inexplicable %, even for similar properties at literally the same street, at less than $5 difference, the UR portal's tax charges could be quite varied on these 2 properties. I am talking straightly on UR site itself.

Note that in some locales in foreign countries, the taxes are based on "stars" the city regulatory agencies governed the lodging industry - so that might be part of it. I cannot explain this scenario on properties in Japan though - because the local taxes while based by on the level of hotel rate (below or above 10000 JPY) - said taxes are to be paid separately at the property, NOT incl in the UR pricing. There are even not so small prints to inform you such.

Just by comparing the rates between what UR shows and what Expedia shows - both BEFORE taxes, there are padding all around at over 90% of the international stuff I have checked.

Domestically, the padding is much smaller because large padding not only is much easier to avoid, BUT also much more noticeable by far many users due to by and large, people travel far more domestically than internationally.

As for sample size? How about properties in 3 Continents? Asia, Australia and Europe - would that broad enough for you? And not just for hotels, but also foreign airlines, from the well-known to the much unknown to an ordinary US-based customer, and finally cruises. Are these samples across products and geographic locations are still too small to you?

The bottom line is, there is a SYSTEMATIC APPROACH to pad the pricing shown on UR portal. Good for you if you feel it is good enough to accept that deceptive pricing, but not good for many who are more educated and informed.

Here is an example on 2 cruises I booked 4 weeks ago, for upcoming sailings both in April - back to back but with different lines.
The Celebrity Millemium Apr 27 from Tokyo to Vancouver - UR phone booking dept gave me identical prices as Celebrity so I booked with UR. Incidentally, the booking NEVER shows up in My Trip on UR portal, but the minute the UR phone agent booked it, he gave me the Celebrity booking number and it could be pulled up BEFORE I even got Chase confirmation email. The agent said it would show up under My Trip in a few hours. IT NEVER DOES. I dont care as long as Celebrity sees the fully paid booking.

The Diamond Princess Circle Japan cruise Apr 19 - UR phone agent gave me a price almost 20% higher than what Princess site showed. On top of that, our cruise agent has $100 OBC for each passenger that UR does not. Further on top of that, AMEX has a $100 statement credit on $500 or more booking made directly with one of the 5 or 6 brands under Carnival Corp. All added together, there is simply Zero advantage to use the UR pts to pay for this cruise. So I booked thru our cruise agent paid with 2 AMEX cards and got back 2x $100 statement credit, plus 2x $100 OBC.

Oh, just for the record - our upcoming flight to Japan is on AA award flying JL First class JFK-NRT and that has absolutely Zero relationship with UR pts nor the transfer.

Finally, a trip consists MANY Parts, not just the cross ocean J/F flights which actually are the easiest part if you are engaged enough and know how to do it.

On the second point, you are correct - you would still get 1.3ish on that redemption, just not as ADVERTISED BENEFIT of the CSR card or what Chase wants all CSR customers to believe. The % of occasions you get 100% benefit is very small.

But I would still advise you and anyone who want to use the so-called 1.5x benefit to book travel - DO HARD CALCULATION to see if your savings are good enough to use UR. That is not even accounted for the HASSLE you would encounter, should you have flight schedule changes or hotel not find your booking or any kind of mishap. Good luck to get things sorted with UR.

For immediate, simple trips, when the padding is acceptable to you, sure, use the UR to get your 1.3x or whatever. However cardholders should know the perils and not just blindly take what Chase advertises, as it is really just In Theory Only. Of course YMMV as always.
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Last edited by Happy; Apr 4, 2019 at 3:13 pm
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 3:08 pm
  #20  
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Originally Posted by mia
Complexity is our friend. I daresay American Express's average redemption cost per point is lower than Chase's cost, and this allows American Express to offer more value to those who are sufficiently engaged to find it. I consider this good program design.
I totally agree, even though I hope AMEX brings in more physical restaurants than the Grubhub stuff because the latter has serious geographical limitation.
At least AMEX does not engage in some bogus claims on their travel benefits like Chase does.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 3:20 pm
  #21  
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Originally Posted by krazykanuck
That's a bittt hyperbolic. An hour? How long did your post take?

Amex cards, and I'd say the MR ecosystem, are a bit more effort and require more knowledge to optimize than Chase cards and the UR system. I'm not going to disagree with you on that, but I'd say that there is a lot of potential value upside in the Amex corner. The benefits and credits are more YMMV when it comes to easily getting value out of them, there is no easy travel portal or cash back, and some of the transfer partners need a bit of thinking, but depending on your travel and spending habits can be a better value.

I'm flying r/t from the US to Asia in biz later this month on EVA, ANA, and back Asiana for 95k MR points. You can't do that with UR transfer partners. You just can't. You find the Gold card to be a hassle, I find it to be a Gold Mine of MR points. To each their own... and I say that as somebody with as many Chase cards as Amex cards
A very basic search on reddit gives you a very long list of people's reports how Chase UR prices are inflated. Some said their targeted bookings are 30% higher!

https://www.reddit.com/r/awardtravel...ent=t1_eifodlm

I think my MR related Round the World redemption would be right up there as yours - J award 160K US to Europe, Stopover, then Europe to Australia via Asia, Destination, followed by Australia to Asia, stopover, then Asia back to US - flying TP, TK, SQ, BR, and the last leg is on UA which unfortunately is in coach - but at a < 3 hrs hop I would take it. Can't do it with UR transfer.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 3:45 pm
  #22  
 
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Very simple. Either the card works for you or it doesn’t. The primary benefit of American Express and Membership Rewards is that it is, IMO, by far the most flexible transferable currency available and points are relatively easy to come by. That has real value for people who can make use of it. I don’t even think having Hyatt is that much of an advantage for Chase anymore since AMEX has been running near constant 30%-50% transfer bonuses to Hilton for the last 2 years.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 4:23 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by jags86
I don’t even think having Hyatt is that much of an advantage for Chase anymore since AMEX has been running near constant 30%-50% transfer bonuses to Hilton for the last 2 years.
Even with a 50% transfer bonus for MR to Hilton, Chase UR -> Hyatt is still probably a better value in many cases assuming there is a Hyatt where you are going, especially if you're not booking their top category hotels. I mean most Hyatt properties are 15k pts/nt or less, which is 1:1 with UR. Hilton's program is now mostly revenue based, but still maintains category caps, so unless you're in some high demand situation where the cash price is high yet there are still standard award rooms available, you're kinda stuck in the 0.5-0.7 cpp range. I've never transferred MR to Hilton and don't imagine why I would (much like xfering to Delta) but just my thoughts.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 5:02 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by krazykanuck
Even with a 50% transfer bonus for MR to Hilton, Chase UR -> Hyatt is still probably a better value in many cases assuming there is a Hyatt where you are going, especially if you're not booking their top category hotels. I mean most Hyatt properties are 15k pts/nt or less, which is 1:1 with UR. Hilton's program is now mostly revenue based, but still maintains category caps, so unless you're in some high demand situation where the cash price is high yet there are still standard award rooms available, you're kinda stuck in the 0.5-0.7 cpp range. I've never transferred MR to Hilton and don't imagine why I would (much like xfering to Delta) but just my thoughts.
Yes, but $0.005-$0.007 on Hilton gives you $0.013 - $0.021 per MR. Hyatt generally is in that $0.015 - $0.02 range already. In addition, you get 5th night free with Hilton on awards which Hyatt does not help.

For example I was just looking at stays in Aruba at the Hyatt and at the Hilton. The particular dates I was looking at had 7 nights at the Hyatt for 25k, 175,000 total or 7 nights at the Hilton for 432,000 Hilton points (72k/night 5th night free). 432,000/2.6 current MR transfer ratio = 166,153 MR points.

Cash rate for the Hyatt was $2454 and cash rate for the Hilton $2647


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Last edited by jags86; Apr 4, 2019 at 5:07 pm
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 7:00 pm
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by sethMCOflyer
I feel like there needs to be a discussion about how confusing Amex needlessly makes their rewards and benefits in comparison to other issuers. I'm outlining the Gold card below, but it's similar for the Platinum card.

Amex Gold
  • 4x points on restaurants and groceries (so long as you spend less than $25k on groceries) - simple
  • 3x points on travel - But wait, only airline tickets booked direct with an airline and hotels booked through their travel portal. Useless for anyone pursuing hotel status
  • $120 dining credit - Available at a few restaurants that are pretty common, but wait only $10 a month, use it or lose it.
  • $100 airline credit - Good on pretty much any airline, but wait, you must pick the airline and then it's only on incidentals. They may as well make this a $10 a month too for further confusion
MR Point Redemptions
  • Cash back - NO
  • Pay for specific transactions on your bill - Yes, however it's $0.006 per point so your 4 points per dollar on eating out becomes 2.5% back, travel becomes 1.8% back
  • Shop through Amex - You can buy stuff through their shopping portal, but again, a terrible value
  • Pay for Uber - Yes, actually $0.01 per point so less terrible, but most other banks offer a direct $0.01 conversion per point just to get cash back
  • Pay for Travel - Yes, but again terrible value
  • THE ONLY GOOD VALUE - Transfer points to a travel partner. You'll need to do a lot of research to learn which programs offer the best value in flying you to a particular destination and then transfer points to fly in a J or F cabin. With this you can often get a couple cents per point of value, but it's also tough to find the flight on the date and time that you're looking for.
So for a $250 annual fee you effectively pay $30 after remembering to eat at one of the restaurants they support each month and using the confusing $100 incidental credit. In my case I enjoy Shake Shack, but would I be there every month if not for the credit? Probably not, so there's some extra cost associated with that.

This is all to say, the gold card only seems to be a decent deal if you spend a lot and really value the MR transfer partners. Otherwise it seems like a card with a bunch of gotchas that for most people who don't learn all the intricacies of the benefits would probably be better off with a no fee double cash back card. The card is simply needlessly complicated, they need to get with the program and look at what Chase does with the CSR and CSP cards, benefits that can be explained in less than a minute.So for a $250 annual fee you effectively pay $30 after remembering to eat at one of the restura
it is not confusing at all. Your summary demonstrates you have full understanding of the rewards. Constraining? Yes.
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Old Apr 4, 2019, 8:11 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by krazykanuck
I'm flying r/t from the US to Asia in biz later this month on EVA, ANA, and back Asiana for 95k MR points. You can't do that with UR transfer partners. You just can't.
You conveniently fail to disclose (and to compare) the portion of the price that you would need to pay in cash, which, in most cases, is significantly higher if you book through ANA.
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Old Apr 5, 2019, 3:00 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by UA Apologist
You conveniently fail to disclose (and to compare) the portion of the price that you would need to pay in cash, which, in most cases, is significantly higher if you book through ANA.
Higher yes, but we're not talking BA level surcharges either. For the convenience of other readers my most recent redemption via ANA the taxes and fees were ~$300, with $200 of that being YQ, so the fees booking via UA would have been about $100. BUT it also would have cost at least 65k more UR points to transfer and book through UA, since they don't have as flexible stopover rules as ANA. Not that I would, but I could cash out 20k UR points to cover the increased cash cost of booking through ANA and it would still be more points efficient to book using MR.
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Old Apr 5, 2019, 7:03 am
  #28  
 
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On paper that 4x MR on dining looks great, but I've seen a lot of complaints of restaurants not actually coding as restaurants, so not earning the 4x. In addition, the 4x is only for spend in US restaurants. Part of the reason I still have a CSR is because the 3x on dining works pretty reliable at anything that could be called a restaurant, in the US or abroad. Likewise, the travel category is very broad vs Amex's very limited airline direct or travel portal. Given the current limitations of the category earning and the $10/month food credit, the card is not a keeper in my eyes.
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Old Apr 5, 2019, 8:47 am
  #29  
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Originally Posted by EverGreen7230
On paper that 4x MR on dining looks great, but I've seen a lot of complaints of restaurants not actually coding as restaurants, so not earning the 4x. In addition, the 4x is only for spend in US restaurants. Part of the reason I still have a CSR is because the 3x on dining works pretty reliable at anything that could be called a restaurant, in the US or abroad. Likewise, the travel category is very broad vs Amex's very limited airline direct or travel portal. Given the current limitations of the category earning and the $10/month food credit, the card is not a keeper in my eyes.
I feel like all of the Amex fanboys are pissed off at me but I'm glad someone shares my view.

Amex has a lot of potential value, but if I'm paying a few hundred dollars a year on an annual fee I don't want to have to deal with restrictions and fine print. I'd happily pay more money to not deal with that.
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Old Apr 5, 2019, 2:58 pm
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by EverGreen7230
On paper that 4x MR on dining looks great, but I've seen a lot of complaints of restaurants not actually coding as restaurants, so not earning the 4x. In addition, the 4x is only for spend in US restaurants. Part of the reason I still have a CSR is because the 3x on dining works pretty reliable at anything that could be called a restaurant, in the US or abroad. Likewise, the travel category is very broad vs Amex's very limited airline direct or travel portal. Given the current limitations of the category earning and the $10/month food credit, the card is not a keeper in my eyes.
Correct, there are definitely downsides to the AMEX Gold card, just as there are downsides to most cards with an annual fee. I also do not think that a direct comparison with AMEX Gold and Chase CSR is necessarily fair as they are not direct competitors and if you have enough spend of certain types can be complimentary rather than competing.

My biggest issue with the CSR is that I think most people (perhaps not on this website, just most people who have the card) are redeeming via the Chase portal for “1.5cpp” redemption value. For people doing that, I think the US Bank Altitude Reserve is a far superior card as you can actually hunt for the best deal and then redeem after the fact at 1.5cpp. Not only do you get a true 1.5cpp redemption but you earn 3x points on the purchase, you can buy through Hotels.com if you value their 10% back system over say a particular hotels loyalty program, and you can get bonus rewards from shopping through a cash back portal.
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