Why do I want to earn AMEX MR?

Old May 24, 2016, 4:25 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by btk2333
I think this is your key point. If you're mainly flying coach domestically and don't have a huge interest in flying premium cabins internationally (or even coach internationally) then you may very well be happy with the Capital One Venture Card and Chase Sapphire.
Thank you! It seems to me to be that way, but I'm a newbie, hence the OP question.

Originally Posted by btk2333
Might I inquire why you choose the Venture card over the Barclay Arrival Plus card which earns slightly better than the Venture?
Probably because I'm not aware of the awesome benefits of the Barclay Plus card. I've seen it in blogs, but nothing jumped out at me. Every blogger seems to be crazy about the Sapphire card. Now I have to go and look at Barclay in more detail : ) Thank you.




Originally Posted by mia
Thank you. I'll check them out.
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Old May 24, 2016, 4:50 pm
  #17  
 
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Not all points are equal in value. Venture miles is not comparable to Amex MR, since the value of MR can vary wildly depending on how you are redeeming them.

Last year, I redeemed 90k MR points, transferred to Aeroplan, to fly business to Thailand... the actual cost of the flight was well over $7000 if paid for by cash. Redeeming business to Japan through ANA cost 65K MR to ANA, flights can easily run $3-4000.

Venture earns at 2x, but the most you can get out of them is 1 cent per point (unless something has changed and I am not up to date on how to use them). Let's take my example of 90k redemption to Thailand, it would take 700,000 Venture points to pay for that, earning at 2x, means $350,000 spent. Using the Amex EDP and taking advantage of the 3x category and 50% bonus, I could spend about $20,000 and get enough MR to pay for that ticket. That's not a very high level of spend at all.

If you are flying coach around the US, then it might not make sense to you... but your spending habits could actually be allowing you to fly in business or first class. Most of my flying is international and I haven't redeemed points for a domestic flight for years, since the redemption value is low and I can make better use of those points for an international business or first class trip. It's opportunity cost - I can either pay for the ticket, earn MR at 3x and use them later at 6cpp+ or I can redeem for around 1cpp or 2cpp and not earn any miles. For people who can't afford the flight and don't have any plans to fly internationally, then redeeming for lower value can make sense, so I guess the Venture would make sense in that case.

What is best for you isn't the best for everyone else, however.
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Old May 24, 2016, 5:07 pm
  #18  
mia
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
...whether earning AMEX MR points can be more rewarding for occasional travel purposes within North America than other alternatives, such as Venture card or its equivalents. I haven't seen an affirmative answer yet with a concrete example.
Of course it can be, see this example of a domestic economy class routing where transferring to Delta saved $0.021 per point, which is slightly better than $0.02 from a 2% cashback or points card. However, this is very dependent of your home airport and frequent destinations. If you live near, or travel to, airports that are serviced by commuter airlines you are likely to realize a better than 2% return, but if you generally fly to/from hub airports in economy class you will probably not because the fares are lower.

However, when evaluating a credit card, don't look only at the points/miles per dollar. Also factor in:

  • New account bonus
  • Foreign transaction fees
  • Category bonuses (for transactions with certain types of merchants)
  • Threshold bonuses (for reaching an annual target)
  • Temporary bonuses
  • Retention bonuses (for renewing the card)

Cash back cards tend to lag behind miles when looking at the full lifecycle of the card. (Ventures "miles" are actually restricted-cash which can only be used for travel. They are not convertible to airline miles.)

To get the full value from Chase Ultimate Rewards you need to have more than one Chase card. Sapphire Preferred alone won't do much in terms of rewards. You also need Freedom to earn 5 point per dollar on revolving quarterly categories, and an Ink business card to earn 5 points per dollar on several fixed categories, including office supply stores where you can buy gift cards issued by various merchants where you would otherwise earn only one or two points.

Last edited by mia; May 24, 2016 at 5:35 pm Reason: Commas
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Old May 26, 2016, 11:08 am
  #19  
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Originally Posted by mia
Of course it can be, see this example of a domestic economy class routing where transferring to Delta saved $0.021 per point, which is slightly better than $0.02 from a 2% cashback or points card. However, this is very dependent of your home airport and frequent destinations. If you live near, or travel to, airports that are serviced by commuter airlines you are likely to realize a better than 2% return, but if you generally fly to/from hub airports in economy class you will probably not because the fares are lower.
That seems to be the case. I checked quite a few Delta flights in the last couple of years and never saw anything above $0.015 for flights I was interested in. That's exactly why I asked the OP question. But I can see now how others might get better value out of the MR points. Thank you.

Originally Posted by mia

To get the full value from Chase Ultimate Rewards you need to have more than one Chase card. Sapphire Preferred alone won't do much in terms of rewards. You also need Freedom to earn 5 point per dollar on revolving quarterly categories, and an Ink business card to earn 5 points per dollar on several fixed categories, including office supply stores where you can buy gift cards issued by various merchants where you would otherwise earn only one or two points.
Would you please elaborate a little further? I just got 65k points on my Saphire and quite satisfied with that. I understand that Freedom would allow me to earn additional UR's but that doesn't render the Sapphire rather useless, does it? I haven't got Freedom yet (Chase told me to cool down for a couple of months with my CC opening spree I'm on) and perhaps I don't see how the tandem works yet. Is it because the efficiency of earning points is much higher with Freedom (due to quarterly specials) and they allow to transfer the Freedom points to Sapphire's UR for subsequent use with a lot of partners? Is that it?

Also, I haven't applied for a business Ink card because I don't have a business. Is it just a matter of registering some bs business with the state and requesting CC's with the business's ID number? Is that what folks with no real business do?

I'm sorry to bombard you with all these newbie questions, but appreciate your help. Thank you.
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Old May 26, 2016, 11:19 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by DjRocket

Originally Posted by btk2333
Might I inquire why you choose the Venture card over the Barclay Arrival Plus card which earns slightly better than the Venture?

Probably because I'm not aware of the awesome benefits of the Barclay Plus card. I've seen it in blogs, but nothing jumped out at me. Every blogger seems to be crazy about the Sapphire card. Now I have to go and look at Barclay in more detail : ) Thank you.

Thank you. I'll check them out.
Well I checked out the Barclay Arrival +. Thank you for the reference. It sounds just like the Venture with a marginal extra value of giving 5% to redeemed miles. I applied and got approved with a surprisingly low 7k CL. Would like to try some MS with it to pay for car rental charges I'm planning to put on this card. Do you have any feedback on whether this card is MS friendly? I'm going to try to cycle through the CL like some folks do in these forums. Thank you.


@eccentricfusion Thank you very much for the feedback. I see what you're saying but it sounds like my circumstances and flying profile are different, which make it look like using 2% cashbacks is a better deal for me.
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Old May 26, 2016, 11:23 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
Also, I haven't applied for a business Ink card because I don't have a business. Is it just a matter of registering some bs business with the state and requesting CC's with the business's ID number? Is that what folks with no real business do?
I don't have a business ID, I just told Chase that my business is owning rental properties (which I do actually own). I also at one time considered my significant buying and selling on ebay as a side business. Both were legitimate and I would not have lied about the revenue they generated had Chase asked...but they did not ask any questions about them.
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Old May 26, 2016, 11:32 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
Is it because the efficiency of earning points is much higher with Freedom (due to quarterly specials) and they allow to transfer the Freedom points to Sapphire's UR for subsequent use with a lot of partners? Is that it?
Yes and yes.
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Old May 26, 2016, 11:48 am
  #23  
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Originally Posted by knopfler
I don't have a business ID, I just told Chase that my business is owning rental properties (which I do actually own). I also at one time considered my significant buying and selling on ebay as a side business. Both were legitimate and I would not have lied about the revenue they generated had Chase asked...but they did not ask any questions about them.
Ah, there's an insight. Do you apply, wait for a letter requesting a proof (that's what happened to me) and then call them with an explanation? Or do you call the application line right away and they do the approval with any question on the fly? Thanks!

Originally Posted by eccentricfusion
Yes and yes.
Got it, thank you.
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Old May 26, 2016, 12:10 pm
  #24  
mia
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
Would you please elaborate a little further? I just got 65k points on my Sapphire and quite satisfied with that.
Questions about Chase Ultimate Rewards are, of course, best researched in the Chase forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase...e-rewards-722/

Ultimate Rewards and Membership Rewards are similar programs. The highest monetary value is achieved by transferring points to airline partners and redeeming for what would be expensive tickets. What sets Ultimate Rewards apart from Membership Rewards are:

1. The transfer partners. American Express has more partners, but Chase has a couple of exclusive partnerships that many consider valuable (United Airlines and Hyatt Hotels). This factor is less important in your case where transferring is not a good fit.

2. Chase has cards that earn 5 points per dollar (as mentioned in my previous post). If you are going to use UR points to purchase revenue tickets at $0.0125 per point, it's much better to earn 5 points per dollar (5x0.0125=6.25%) than to use Sapphire or Venture.

Whether you need to keep Sapphire in addition to Freedom and Ink depends on whether you intend to transfer to airline or hotel partners, on which INK card you choose, and on how much you value the benefits provided by Sapphire. Proceed slowly, you don't need three Chase cards immediately, but if you like the program for the longterm you will want more than one, and you will need the discipline to use the best card for each merchant.
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Old May 27, 2016, 12:26 pm
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
Well I checked out the Barclay Arrival +. Thank you for the reference. It sounds just like the Venture with a marginal extra value of giving 5% to redeemed miles. I applied and got approved with a surprisingly low 7k CL. Would like to try some MS with it to pay for car rental charges I'm planning to put on this card. Do you have any feedback on whether this card is MS friendly? I'm going to try to cycle through the CL like some folks do in these forums. Thank you.


@eccentricfusion Thank you very much for the feedback. I see what you're saying but it sounds like my circumstances and flying profile are different, which make it look like using 2% cashbacks is a better deal for me.
You may want to reconsider not getting the Barclays Arrivals + card if it's not too late. When I was researching annual fee rewards credit cards 3 years ago, the Barclays Arrivals + jumped out at me as a simple no brainer cash back credit card.

If you don't want to be bogged down with figuring out MR or UR transfer value to partners, IMO the Arrivals + is the best annual fee cash back card out there. That extra 5% redemption bonus makes your cash back to be an equivalent of 2.1% cash back. And based on my research, even gasoline purchases are eligible for reimbursement as a "travel expense".

However, IMO, today, getting that extra 0.1% cash back is not worth the annual fee on that card, only because 2 years ago Citi introduced a 2% cash back credit card with no fees, and it is beating the pants off everyone right now, though Citi doesn't offer any bonuses. This 0.1% extra you get from Arrivals + may be worth it if you spend a lot however, but if you don't, and you're not trying to manufacture spending constantly, then the Citi 2% card is the best no-brainer no fee card out there period.

Today, when my co-workers who know that I do these things ask me what card they should get, I always tell them, if they can't be bothered to manage the points, do the transfer math, or even know if they want to redeem for flights, then just get the Citi card and be done with it. Else, as others has stated before, choosing a MR or UR program card is dependent on where you want to go, who you want to flight with and who offers the best redemption at that time.

(Also, I swear 3 years ago, Arrivals + gave a 10% bonus for redemptions, not 5%, maybe I misread back then)

Edit: yes, Barclays had a major program change for Arrivals +. http://thepointsguy.com/2015/07/barc...firms-changes/

IMO, abort, this is not a great card to keep in the long term anymore given the minimum benefit you receive, though that sign up bonus is sweet. They're basically giving you $200.

Last edited by mdosu; May 27, 2016 at 12:40 pm
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Old May 27, 2016, 12:54 pm
  #26  
 
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I get a lot of value out of Aeroplan, which is why I like Membership Rewards. The business class redemption rates are better than United, and a number of airlines don't pass along fuel surcharges. I'm not a big fan of United's program, given the expensive redemption rates for partner awards.

I'll agree it can be a challenge to get value out of SkyMiles. The one big redemption I made with them was 160,000 miles for a R/T business class award, which was much more than I wanted to spend, but I didn't have many options, since my dates weren't flexible.

With more and more commonality among programs (for instance, Chase adding Flying Blue), the best option for me is to pick the highest earn rate for each purchase regardless of the program. Even though my MR balance is the highest among the three programs, I'm not specifically loyal to it - it just happens that I can earn the most MR points day-to-day.
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Old May 28, 2016, 12:57 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by mia
Questions about ...

... discipline to use the best card for each merchant.
Thank you Mia, that's very helpful and educational stuff !! Appreciate your time.


@mdosu Hi, I did get the Arrival +, and yes, it appears Citi to be a better option in the cashback category. I'm going to use Venture and Barclays for a while to thank them for a nice sign up bonus, but as soon as the AF comes up, I'll cancel. Somehow in my head I justify that to be fair : )


@jordan_h thanks for the feedback.
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Old May 28, 2016, 9:55 am
  #28  
 
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I currently have arrival+ card and planning on downgrading to free arrival before I get hit with annual fee. Their reward structure made me make this decision. Currently I am using BofA travel card and earn 2.625 and then transfer points to my BofA business card and then cash in the rewards at 1%. I hardly fly but I do go on car trips so I either use the points for hotels or just cash back.
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Old May 29, 2016, 4:32 pm
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by DjRocket
Greetings, I recently signed up for a bunch of CC's including AMEX Delta and AMEX GPR earning MR. Now that I've collected bonuses and scheduled my trips (big thanks to Chase, AMEX, Captial One, and this forum) I'm facing the decision of which card(s) I want to use for daily purchases. And I just can't see why in the world I'd be using the AMEX cards. Between Capital One Venture earning 2 miles per $1 spent and Sapphire from Chase paying double for dining and earning more valuable UR, I'm covered. The only cool spending perk from the AMEX GPR card is it gives 3 points per $1 spent on airfair. Well, but if the whole point of getting points is to spend them on airfare, then it's not really a perk I can use. I find that earning 2x by using the Venture CC on any purchases and then simply using those miles to buy the lowest airfare or hotel price offered by anybody on the interent is the best way to go. The only exception is dining or travel purchases that you're not redeeming with points, in which case I use the Sapphire since it earns 2x UR which are more valuable than MR.

I'm not a frequent flier and if I do fly on vacation trips, it's primarily within the North and Latin Americas. With such profile is there any benefit in using AMEX other than simply thanking them for giving me the sign-up bonus? Thank you in advance for ideas.

DJR
At the risk of getting on topic , a domestic and Latin America flyer might want to collect MR to transfer to Avios for 7500 mile tickets on American Airlines or slightly higher flights on LAN that would be more expensive with other programs.
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Old May 29, 2016, 5:23 pm
  #30  
mia
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Originally Posted by farnorthtrader
....collect MR to transfer to Avios .
Avios can more efficiently be earned with several other programs. I don't see BA as a reason to collect Membership Rewards (in the USA market).
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