New Amex + Coins = Financial Review!
Aug 28, 2009, 6:06 pm
#91
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
Good News????
Looks to me like smcgrath12 has screwed the pooch for all of us Amex users who have purposefully flown below Amex's radar and used our cards and credit lines responsibly. Thanks for all of the attention you brought to the "top four executives on the consumer side." Hmmmm...........Good News that they will be watching US Mint purchases using Amex cards! I think NOT
Looks to me like smcgrath12 has screwed the pooch for all of us Amex users who have purposefully flown below Amex's radar and used our cards and credit lines responsibly. Thanks for all of the attention you brought to the "top four executives on the consumer side." Hmmmm...........Good News that they will be watching US Mint purchases using Amex cards! I think NOT
Aug 28, 2009, 6:08 pm
#92
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
Aug 28, 2009, 6:13 pm
#94
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,324
I have not read of any other person going to the lengths that this one particular user has gone to. Emailing the top 4 executives! When you play with fire of maxing out credit lines, you'll get burned. Just ask the many people who had credit lines closed for doing so! Lots of interesting reading at Fatwallet and Creditboard forums!
Aug 28, 2009, 6:22 pm
#95
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: TPA
Programs: AAdvantage 2 million, Marriott Gold
Posts: 960
Not to derail the topic, too much, but watch out for the large cash transactions you are depositing in the bank. Banks must report cash transactions over $10,000 to the government. After a few (too many) someone may come calling. Then there are those banks that will refuse to take possession of that much coin - UGH. It does happen. Costs them money to handle and move it around.
Aug 28, 2009, 6:25 pm
#96
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
Since you asked my opinion: anyone that has the time to lug tons of coins from their house or business to the bank, waste the time of the bank to process the coins, then fill out CTR and/or SAR forms, then worry about structuring, and then potentially have to deal with potential downstream tax implications. Let's not forget FICO impact and/or getting their cards shut down (like our friend the OP). That's just my my opinion, and that's why I'm not participating. But if you're having fun, more power to ya.
Before anyone comes down too hard on the OP, I believe that Amex is a lot smarter that most think. A spike in volume for the US mint had to be noticed by someone. If Amex is making money off of it, they won't shut it down. I think the churners need to worry more about the Mint and the banks than Amex. The Mint has to be losing a boatload of money on every transaction (between the merchant card fee and the free shipping). The Banks I'm sure are not liking dealing with the costs of processing the coins. I'd guess that there are people hard at work trying to figure out a way to make it more difficult to accept the coins or add fees for dealing with them. If that is not in the works, I wonder if some well placed Chase, BofA, US Bank, or Wells Fargo VP is in contact with someone at the Mint asking them if they've lost their collective minds.
This 'gravy train' (like all others) is going to end soon.
Before anyone comes down too hard on the OP, I believe that Amex is a lot smarter that most think. A spike in volume for the US mint had to be noticed by someone. If Amex is making money off of it, they won't shut it down. I think the churners need to worry more about the Mint and the banks than Amex. The Mint has to be losing a boatload of money on every transaction (between the merchant card fee and the free shipping). The Banks I'm sure are not liking dealing with the costs of processing the coins. I'd guess that there are people hard at work trying to figure out a way to make it more difficult to accept the coins or add fees for dealing with them. If that is not in the works, I wonder if some well placed Chase, BofA, US Bank, or Wells Fargo VP is in contact with someone at the Mint asking them if they've lost their collective minds.
This 'gravy train' (like all others) is going to end soon.
Last edited by skofarrell; Aug 28, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Aug 28, 2009, 6:37 pm
#97
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Programs: OP, SPG, Amex MR
Posts: 318
And once the deed was done, it was done. Amex pulls me up. I am going to do everything in my power to make sure that I come out on the winning side. I am NOT going to sit and think "Well, let me not do anything, otherwise EJS621 cannot churn coins on his Amex". No, it doesn't work that way, to be honest.
Last edited by smcgrath12; Aug 28, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Aug 28, 2009, 7:45 pm
#98
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Midwest
Programs: AA Advantage Platinum, United 1K, Marriott Rewards Platinum, Hilton Honors Diamond
Posts: 395
I wanted to warn people putting coin purchases on Amex cards.
I just got swept up in their FR. Guess what, they have decided that they will close all my cards down because of "risky" behavior due to US MINT coin purchases. Note, I have not gone over the limit in a billing cycle like some do to recycle credit limits. I have a solid payment record with Amex (and with every other creditor, not one late payment and payment in full everytime). I charge everything to Amex, been with them for 10 years. My gross (and my wife's) is in the upper 5% of this country.
But to no avail. I pleaded with them that my wife is in India and she will be stranded without a functioning card, but no go. I offered to fax our pay stubs, etc., but no go. To add insult to injury, they closed my wife's cards and my mother's as well (same billing address).
I take pride in managing my finances properly and being called "financially irresponsible/risky" was a real kick in the guts.
I asked them to reduce my credit lines, deny any other charges from US Mint, but they are not willing to see reason.
I am not looking for sympathy (and I don't want to justify who is right and who is wrong), but a warning to others to cover their bases. Best of luck to the Amex Coin Churners.
I just got swept up in their FR. Guess what, they have decided that they will close all my cards down because of "risky" behavior due to US MINT coin purchases. Note, I have not gone over the limit in a billing cycle like some do to recycle credit limits. I have a solid payment record with Amex (and with every other creditor, not one late payment and payment in full everytime). I charge everything to Amex, been with them for 10 years. My gross (and my wife's) is in the upper 5% of this country.
But to no avail. I pleaded with them that my wife is in India and she will be stranded without a functioning card, but no go. I offered to fax our pay stubs, etc., but no go. To add insult to injury, they closed my wife's cards and my mother's as well (same billing address).
I take pride in managing my finances properly and being called "financially irresponsible/risky" was a real kick in the guts.
I asked them to reduce my credit lines, deny any other charges from US Mint, but they are not willing to see reason.
I am not looking for sympathy (and I don't want to justify who is right and who is wrong), but a warning to others to cover their bases. Best of luck to the Amex Coin Churners.
On the other hand I'll continue to do as I do.
Good Luck in your endeavors!
Aug 28, 2009, 8:25 pm
#99
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 425
smcgrath12 what you did and do is called "GREED".
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -
), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!
It is OK to once in a while to purchase 500 coins here and there (sorry I am not comfortable doing even that) but churning tens of thousands of dollars this way consistently not only catches the attention of credit card issuers, banks, etc. but they are obligated by law to report such activity to the law enforcement agencies as there may be genuine money laundering going on.
Ask yourself the question: if you had to pay $50 for shipping for each transaction, would you have engaged in such activity?
Sorry for singling you out but anyone else doing this on a consistent basis in large quantities don't be surprised to find FBI come knocking at your door.
Most of us come here to share and learn about opportunities to fly, earn miles, get status, and it requires effort on our part to actually fly and purchase tickets because we believe the ROI is good on our investment of time and money. But churning out tens of thousands of dollars through the US government, banks, credit companies.....thank you very much.
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -
), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!It is OK to once in a while to purchase 500 coins here and there (sorry I am not comfortable doing even that) but churning tens of thousands of dollars this way consistently not only catches the attention of credit card issuers, banks, etc. but they are obligated by law to report such activity to the law enforcement agencies as there may be genuine money laundering going on.
Ask yourself the question: if you had to pay $50 for shipping for each transaction, would you have engaged in such activity?
Sorry for singling you out but anyone else doing this on a consistent basis in large quantities don't be surprised to find FBI come knocking at your door.
Most of us come here to share and learn about opportunities to fly, earn miles, get status, and it requires effort on our part to actually fly and purchase tickets because we believe the ROI is good on our investment of time and money. But churning out tens of thousands of dollars through the US government, banks, credit companies.....thank you very much.
Aug 28, 2009, 8:42 pm
#100
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
smcgrath12 what you did and do is called "GREED".
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!
It is OK to once in a while to purchase 500 coins here and there (sorry I am not comfortable doing even that) but churning tens of thousands of dollars this way consistently not only catches the attention of credit card issuers, banks, etc. but they are obligated by law to report such activity to the law enforcement agencies as there may be genuine money laundering going on.
Ask yourself the question: if you had to pay $50 for shipping for each transaction, would you have engaged in such activity?
Sorry for singling you out but anyone else doing this on a consistent basis in large quantities don't be surprised to find FBI come knocking at your door.
Most of us come here to share and learn about opportunities to fly, earn miles, get status, and it requires effort on our part to actually fly and purchase tickets because we believe the ROI is good on our investment of time and money. But churning out tens of thousands of dollars through the US government, banks, credit companies.....thank you very much.
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -
), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!It is OK to once in a while to purchase 500 coins here and there (sorry I am not comfortable doing even that) but churning tens of thousands of dollars this way consistently not only catches the attention of credit card issuers, banks, etc. but they are obligated by law to report such activity to the law enforcement agencies as there may be genuine money laundering going on.
Ask yourself the question: if you had to pay $50 for shipping for each transaction, would you have engaged in such activity?
Sorry for singling you out but anyone else doing this on a consistent basis in large quantities don't be surprised to find FBI come knocking at your door.
Most of us come here to share and learn about opportunities to fly, earn miles, get status, and it requires effort on our part to actually fly and purchase tickets because we believe the ROI is good on our investment of time and money. But churning out tens of thousands of dollars through the US government, banks, credit companies.....thank you very much.
Its not laundering when you fill out the IRS's US Currency Transaction Report and/or are the subject of a Suspicious Activity Report. Most coin churners are not 'structuring' their deposit transactions to avoid detection, because they are not doing anything illegal.
The Mint is the sucker in this situation, because they are allowing the shipments to occur. If they put a stop to it (by limiting volume, or ending the free shipping promotion) then we know that it was a "deal". If they don't, then we have to assume they know what they are doing. The card companies aren't losing because we have to assuming that the mint is paying the same transaction fees that every merchant pays (because the purchase is coming through as a purchase, not a cash advance).
(I'm not a churner. I don't have the time or patience.)
Aug 28, 2009, 8:48 pm
#101
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: PHL
Posts: 877
Montreal, why has the US Mint not shut down the coin "launderers", or at least limited the scale of their operations? After all, the shipping charges and administrative overhead are substantial even for small orders. They must see some value in this, which is that it's cheaper in the long run to use coins instead of dollar bills. Even if the coins have to be "laundered" first.
Aug 28, 2009, 8:55 pm
#102
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: PHL
Posts: 877
I churned about $2k, then stopped because it was especially not fun to handcarry all those coins to the bank branch half a mile away (don't have a car here in Manhattan). I was happy to get the SPG points, neither the Mint nor Amex nor the bank complained (the teller was amused), and I kept about $200 worth and spent them at shops. I don't feel guilty in the least, and still wouldn't if I'd done $20k.
Aug 28, 2009, 9:09 pm
#103
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Programs: AA 11MM/EXP/Aairpass, SPG Plat
Posts: 343
smcgrath12 what you did and do is called "GREED".
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!
Do you think churning thousands of dollars in US mint you never intend to keep or use, deposit to banks by carrying sack ful of suitcases filled with heavy metal, asking tellers to process this as a deposit, making US mint (you know your actions costs us, the taxpayers, the money, so stop bragging about being in the 5% income bracket in the land of Mr. Madoff and Sir Stanford -
), pay transaction fee does not constitute fraud....according to FBI this is called money laundering!http://www.richerbytheday.com/2009/0...liminated.html
Aug 28, 2009, 9:56 pm
#104
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 123
OP, I don't blame you for doing what you did. If AmEx came calling on me for a FR, I'd do all I had to do in my power to keep my cards alive. I really don't see AmEx denying US Mint purchases anytime soon. The purchases have to be profitable for them.
Aug 28, 2009, 11:29 pm
#105
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Miami, FL, USA
Posts: 4,046
I suggest moving the discussion regarding the actual churning over to our forum at MilesBuzz! (minus the personal attacks). There's a several hundred page thread over there talking about it. It is *not* fraud, and the US Mint *does* make a profit from it.