Financial Review discussion [2009-2013]
Jul 16, 2009, 5:53 am
#31
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Programs: USAir Gold, Delta Slvr, Amex Plat, Hertz #1 Gold
Posts: 412
Cap One stopped issuing cards in Florida, remember? "Worsening economic issues in your area" http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article10474.html
I just picked up a Cap1 "No Hassle Cash Rewards" a few weeks ago, and I live in Florida. Approval wasn't instant, they pulled all 3 CRA's, and then called to verify a bunch of stuff, but they did approve the account. I also know a handful of folks who've financed cars with Cap1 relatively recently, and they certainly didn't seem dissatisfied with the process and they also live in Florida.
So I guess YMMV on this one.
Jul 16, 2009, 1:43 pm
#32
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
I'm going to have to disagree with that one.
I just picked up a Cap1 "No Hassle Cash Rewards" a few weeks ago, and I live in Florida. Approval wasn't instant, they pulled all 3 CRA's, and then called to verify a bunch of stuff, but they did approve the account. I also know a handful of folks who've financed cars with Cap1 relatively recently, and they certainly didn't seem dissatisfied with the process and they also live in Florida.
So I guess YMMV on this one.
I just picked up a Cap1 "No Hassle Cash Rewards" a few weeks ago, and I live in Florida. Approval wasn't instant, they pulled all 3 CRA's, and then called to verify a bunch of stuff, but they did approve the account. I also know a handful of folks who've financed cars with Cap1 relatively recently, and they certainly didn't seem dissatisfied with the process and they also live in Florida.
So I guess YMMV on this one.
So, hopefully, as a man of integrity, you'll end your relationship with CapOne. Because clearly, like Amex, they based their decisions for extending credit based on where their customers live. This is a misuse of information, and is unethical.
But you're welcome to ignore the scan of the letter, or the news articles.
Last edited by skofarrell; Jul 16, 2009 at 8:43 pm Reason: bad links
Jul 16, 2009, 1:55 pm
#33
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
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You keep coming back with these silly arguments pointing out that other issuers are taking adverse action against their customers as well. So what? I couldn't care less. My point is, and has always been, letter "D" in this post. So every time you want to keep coming back with more irrelevant stuff that doesn't remotely apply to my concerns, just re-read letter "D" and you'll answer your own question.
BTW, have you ended your relationship with Amex yet?
Last edited by skofarrell; Jul 16, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Jul 19, 2009, 5:05 am
#34
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: EWR Ionosphere Club, LAX Clipper Club, Still Traveling Global, yearly BIS miles
Programs: EAL Silver Wings, I-Club, Flying Colonels DL, WorldPass PLat from the olde Meatball and PE SMARTbank
Posts: 1,986
After all the threads and all the pages of posts about the antics of the American Express Company, I think everybody should write the following on the blackboard 100 times before going to bed tonight. . .
AMEX has the power to mess with me any freakin' way they want to. It may not be right; it may not be ethical; it may not be consistent; it may not be rational; it may not make sense to anybody but them. And, who knows, it may not even make sense to them. No matter. They can do it, they have done it, and they will do it again. If they do it to me, I have two choices: put up with it, or blow them off and do business with someone else. Amen.
AMEX has the power to mess with me any freakin' way they want to. It may not be right; it may not be ethical; it may not be consistent; it may not be rational; it may not make sense to anybody but them. And, who knows, it may not even make sense to them. No matter. They can do it, they have done it, and they will do it again. If they do it to me, I have two choices: put up with it, or blow them off and do business with someone else. Amen.
May 9, 2010, 12:39 pm
#35
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worldwide
Programs: Amex Plat, BMI Silver
Posts: 401
Financial Reviews justified?
we have eight AMX cards (Plat, rwd plus gold, premier, zinc, Gold Delta skymiles, SPG personal (1 spouse, 1 for me), SPG biz)..also, in last 12 mo; had green card, Plat Delta Skymiles, and another Gold Delta skymiles, plat delta skymiles biz--but cancelled these last four AMX cards. Why this many? Each card came with signup bonus, except Plat card which we use for cruise benefits and lounge access.
ps...AMX conducted FR on me 10 days ago (reason given, I had 10 open AMX cards)...FR rep very courteous
when I called and explained why we had 10 open cards then (we love ff miles/MR points and incentives many AMX cards offer). FR took 5 work days (all my AMX accounts suspended, not my wifes or our two AMX cards
issued by VA) FR rep called me first thing last Monday saying our IRS paperwork was in perfect order,
accounts turned on.
ps...AMX conducted FR on me 10 days ago (reason given, I had 10 open AMX cards)...FR rep very courteous
when I called and explained why we had 10 open cards then (we love ff miles/MR points and incentives many AMX cards offer). FR took 5 work days (all my AMX accounts suspended, not my wifes or our two AMX cards
issued by VA) FR rep called me first thing last Monday saying our IRS paperwork was in perfect order,
accounts turned on.
May 9, 2010, 1:39 pm
#36
Join Date: Mar 2010
Programs: DL DM, Marriott TE, and Reformed AMEX Cent
Posts: 332
I have over 10 AMEX cards and agree with the above statement - why do you have to produce tax forms for them? Fine check my credit every now and then, but asking for tax forms is ASININE!!. Isn't my perfect pay history with AMEX and a current credit report all you really need? Aren't tax forms a TERRIBLE WAY TO ESTIMATE some people's ability to pay on their cards? Sure for w2 employees use tax returns but for business owners taxes are a worthless gauge of someone's ability to pay their bills.
May 9, 2010, 2:19 pm
#37
Used to be Colonelwes
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 69
If AMX selects you for a FR, your only option to continue biz with AMX is
to follow the directions I received by phone/email (copy below) and fill out
a 4506T (tax form) that allows AMX to get copies of your recent W2 (2008, 2009)
to verify your income.
Initially I felt put out that I had been selected by AMX for a FR...considering my high 700 credit score and perfect payment history--do not keep a monthly balance on any credit card)meaning all my AMX accounts would be disabled for the FR period..but then I recalled 10 days earlier, AMX proactively sent me a fraud alert on my SPG...someone had used my SPG card # to download an itune. AMX fraud Dept called me, and I told them I never have downloaded an itune. They then asked me to destroy my SPG card and Fedexed me a replacement SPG card in the next day. Thus, like a root canal is sometimes necessary, I now concur with AMX logic, "the AMX FR is sometimes necessary and a prudent means of conducting AMX biz."
What AMX sent me by email: (abbreviated AMX email to save space)
American Express recently requested that you complete and return a tax form
called the 4506T in order to conduct a financial review. The 4506T authorizes
American Express to retrieve tax information. We find the review process to be
a necessary requirement in order to conduct our business in a prudent and
successful manner.
Detailed instructions on how to fill out the 4506T are included below as well
as in the American Express Fax Cover Sheet. It is critical that this
information be completed correctly and faxed back to us within 5 business days
of the date of this email to avoid closure of the account.
Once the forms are received, they will be processed in 5-7 business days. If
you have questions regarding your review, please call 1800 762 8157 and enter
your account manager's five digit extension (listed at the top of this email)
to avoid long wait times.
Thank you,
The American Express Financial Review Team
to follow the directions I received by phone/email (copy below) and fill out
a 4506T (tax form) that allows AMX to get copies of your recent W2 (2008, 2009)
to verify your income.
Initially I felt put out that I had been selected by AMX for a FR...considering my high 700 credit score and perfect payment history--do not keep a monthly balance on any credit card)meaning all my AMX accounts would be disabled for the FR period..but then I recalled 10 days earlier, AMX proactively sent me a fraud alert on my SPG...someone had used my SPG card # to download an itune. AMX fraud Dept called me, and I told them I never have downloaded an itune. They then asked me to destroy my SPG card and Fedexed me a replacement SPG card in the next day. Thus, like a root canal is sometimes necessary, I now concur with AMX logic, "the AMX FR is sometimes necessary and a prudent means of conducting AMX biz."
What AMX sent me by email: (abbreviated AMX email to save space)
American Express recently requested that you complete and return a tax form
called the 4506T in order to conduct a financial review. The 4506T authorizes
American Express to retrieve tax information. We find the review process to be
a necessary requirement in order to conduct our business in a prudent and
successful manner.
Detailed instructions on how to fill out the 4506T are included below as well
as in the American Express Fax Cover Sheet. It is critical that this
information be completed correctly and faxed back to us within 5 business days
of the date of this email to avoid closure of the account.
Once the forms are received, they will be processed in 5-7 business days. If
you have questions regarding your review, please call 1800 762 8157 and enter
your account manager's five digit extension (listed at the top of this email)
to avoid long wait times.
Thank you,
The American Express Financial Review Team
May 10, 2010, 5:35 am
#38
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
I have over 10 AMEX cards and agree with the above statement - why do you have to produce tax forms for them? Fine check my credit every now and then, but asking for tax forms is ASININE!!. Isn't my perfect pay history with AMEX and a current credit report all you really need? Aren't tax forms a TERRIBLE WAY TO ESTIMATE some people's ability to pay on their cards? Sure for w2 employees use tax returns but for business owners taxes are a worthless gauge of someone's ability to pay their bills.
2. People routinely lie about what they make on credit applications.
3. 5-10 years ago, when creditors called employers to verify job/income, HR departments routinely gave that information out. Privacy laws were enacted, identity theft became common, and companies no longer give this information out.
4. The economy collapsed, and the default rate on cards when into double digits.
5. Amex decided that the only way they could truly verify someone's income was to get a transcript from an unalterable data source (the IRS). They sometimes also ask for bank statements.
6. They shut you down when they question you in order to mitigate loss (if you're distressed and you know Amex wants data, you may decide to run your card(s) during the F/R process).
7. If you didn't lie on your app, and your income can support your lines, the F/R process goes pretty smoothly. The times when it doesn't is if you're on vacation or traveling
Its not personal, its just business.
May 10, 2010, 9:17 am
#39
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worldwide
Programs: Amex Plat, BMI Silver
Posts: 401
1. Perfect pay history is of course a good metric, but we're in a recession. If you've recently lost your job, that perfect history can do down the toilet fast. Ask anyone who's recently lost their job.
2. People routinely lie about what they make on credit applications.
3. 5-10 years ago, when creditors called employers to verify job/income, HR departments routinely gave that information out. Privacy laws were enacted, identity theft became common, and companies no longer give this information out.
4. The economy collapsed, and the default rate on cards when into double digits.
5. Amex decided that the only way they could truly verify someone's income was to get a transcript from an unalterable data source (the IRS). They sometimes also ask for bank statements.
6. They shut you down when they question you in order to mitigate loss (if you're distressed and you know Amex wants data, you may decide to run your card(s) during the F/R process).
7. If you didn't lie on your app, and your income can support your lines, the F/R process goes pretty smoothly. The times when it doesn't is if you're on vacation or traveling
Its not personal, its just business.
2. People routinely lie about what they make on credit applications.
3. 5-10 years ago, when creditors called employers to verify job/income, HR departments routinely gave that information out. Privacy laws were enacted, identity theft became common, and companies no longer give this information out.
4. The economy collapsed, and the default rate on cards when into double digits.
5. Amex decided that the only way they could truly verify someone's income was to get a transcript from an unalterable data source (the IRS). They sometimes also ask for bank statements.
6. They shut you down when they question you in order to mitigate loss (if you're distressed and you know Amex wants data, you may decide to run your card(s) during the F/R process).
7. If you didn't lie on your app, and your income can support your lines, the F/R process goes pretty smoothly. The times when it doesn't is if you're on vacation or traveling
Its not personal, its just business.
2. What if their income is truthful?
3. If their stated is different from their actual income, it may be due to other sources of income, and why should that matter if they can pay their bills?
4. That may be true, but did they default, probably not.
5. Not necessary, some clients may be business for self and deduct everything, makes their income seem lower, when it isn't, not a good business practice, but I see it explained daily.
6. Distress, I wonder who is psychic at Amex.
7. No reason to go thru it all unless they have actual proof to perform one. Which from what I have read, they rarely do.
May 10, 2010, 9:24 am
#40
Moderator
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May 10, 2010, 9:33 am
#41
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Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,952
In the case of a business the lender should request an audited financial statement, but most small businesses don't have such. A corporate income tax return (1120) also shows the essentials: cash flow, income, expenses, assets and liabilities.
May 10, 2010, 10:32 am
#42
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
Programs: DL GM, AA Gold, Hilton Diamond, Bonvoy Plat
Posts: 12,171
1. What if he or she didn't lose their job?
2. What if their income is truthful?
3. If their stated is different from their actual income, it may be due to other sources of income, and why should that matter if they can pay their bills?
4. That may be true, but did they default, probably not.
5. Not necessary, some clients may be business for self and deduct everything, makes their income seem lower, when it isn't, not a good business practice, but I see it explained daily.
6. Distress, I wonder who is psychic at Amex.
7. No reason to go thru it all unless they have actual proof to perform one. Which from what I have read, they rarely do.
2. What if their income is truthful?
3. If their stated is different from their actual income, it may be due to other sources of income, and why should that matter if they can pay their bills?
4. That may be true, but did they default, probably not.
5. Not necessary, some clients may be business for self and deduct everything, makes their income seem lower, when it isn't, not a good business practice, but I see it explained daily.
6. Distress, I wonder who is psychic at Amex.
7. No reason to go thru it all unless they have actual proof to perform one. Which from what I have read, they rarely do.
3. If you're the subject of an F/R you have the opportunity to share financial statements in addition to the IRS transcript. Again, Amex wants to be repaid on a collateral free loan. How else would you suggest documenting ability (not willingness) to repay?
4. Simply documenting why lenders are more paranoid these days.
5. IRS transcript is not foolproof, but lying to the government about income is a crime. Do you have something better?
6. My guess is that the scenario above happened in the past, so they clamped down. No assumption of psychic powers.
7. You're asking to borrow money from a company. In some cases a lot of money. I think these days that the company has a pretty legitimate right to ensure that you're going to pay it back. Too many people are walking away from cards, loans, mortgages, etc. Don't like the rules? Borrow from someone else.
I'm not an expert on the F/R process, and am not even sure if it is used on small businesses. I know for a fact is it used on individuals.
We're veering pretty far off topic.
Last edited by skofarrell; May 10, 2010 at 10:46 am
May 13, 2010, 2:25 pm
#43
Used to be Colonelwes
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 69
Mia, yes, all AMX asked for via (4506T IRS Form) was our 08,09 W2s, thx
May 13, 2010, 2:50 pm
#44
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Worldwide
Programs: Amex Plat, BMI Silver
Posts: 401
May 13, 2010, 5:42 pm
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2001
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