Oct 28, 2012, 8:27 pm
Last edit by: Microwave
Moderator Wikipost
For AA's announcement of their new One-Way Flex Awards, see: http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsr...FlexAwards.jsp
For AA's FAQ on the new One-Way Flex Awards, including the new stopover rule, see: http://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForward.do?...award_faqs.jsp
Note that free stopovers have been eliminated as of 8 April 2014, so that portion of this discussion is no longer current.
/AA Moderator Team
For AA's announcement of their new One-Way Flex Awards, see: http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/newsr...FlexAwards.jsp
For AA's FAQ on the new One-Way Flex Awards, including the new stopover rule, see: http://www.aa.com/aa/i18nForward.do?...award_faqs.jsp
Q: Do one-way awards include any stopovers?
A: Awards between North America and Europe, India, Asia, and Central / South America allow a stopover at the North American gateway. However, other one-way awards do not allow stopovers.
A: Awards between North America and Europe, India, Asia, and Central / South America allow a stopover at the North American gateway. However, other one-way awards do not allow stopovers.
/AA Moderator Team
New One-Way Flex Award / Awards, <NO> Stopover Rule, and Booking Engine (May 9, 2009)
Sep 14, 2012, 5:38 pm
#811
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
Link: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...lidated-2.html
Last edited by aa213bb; Sep 14, 2012 at 5:53 pm Reason: to add link to other thread
Sep 14, 2012, 5:44 pm
#812
Moderator: American AAdvantage, Signatures
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London, England
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton Diamond, IHG Diamond Ambassador, National Exec, AA EXP Emeritus
Posts: 9,765
Sep 14, 2012, 6:25 pm
#813
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
Just looked on EF, and the MPM for LAX-BKK on CX is 9907; now, does AA allow MPM+25%? If so, that gives me an effective MPM of 12383' and using Great Circle Mapper I see that my desired routing is 11596.
I'm going to call back.
Edit: called back, spoke with, I believe, Sean for all of 5 minutes before he said, "Done. You should be getting your updated itinerary emailed later tonight". EF is now showing Z0, as well as 2 seats (the ones I requested) blocked off. Fingers crossed ...
I'm going to call back.
Edit: called back, spoke with, I believe, Sean for all of 5 minutes before he said, "Done. You should be getting your updated itinerary emailed later tonight". EF is now showing Z0, as well as 2 seats (the ones I requested) blocked off. Fingers crossed ...
Last edited by aa213bb; Sep 14, 2012 at 6:53 pm Reason: Update
Sep 14, 2012, 9:41 pm
#815
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
Looking at it, I'm under the 125% of CX's published LAX-BKK MPM, does AA have any sort of "must take most efficient route" mandate of which I'm unaware?
One Mile at a Time indicates everything I'm doing/requesting is fairly standard (http://boardingarea.com/blogs/onemil...-they-allowed/)
Sep 18, 2012, 10:45 pm
#817
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
Update: spoke with another AAgent, and then a supervisor today, and was emphatically told by said Supervisor that "backtracking" is not allowed -- this somewhat conforms to what Jon has posted over at Traveling Better about the Most Direct Routing being necessary (http://www.travelingbetter.com/forum...6&postcount=63).
I was very polite and patient, and asked about fare bases, MPM, and in general said that I wanted to know more about the AA program so that I can be a better informed consumer -- e.g. the AAgent had said something about my change in travel taking me through an extra zone, which may be true as far as Sabre/AAcorn/Back End is concerned, but is not at all reflected in the One World & Other Airline Award Chart posted on the AA site here (http://www.aa.com/i18n/disclaimers/a...rtnerChart.jsp).
I did not bring up that many AAgents, though well-intentioned, do not seem to be very familiar with their own policies -- much less that several times I've received wildly divergent answers to the same question.
Despite my best efforts at being warm and polite, none of these questions/comments seemed to go over too well (note: I went to great lengths to ensure I did not come across as a "know-it-all", DYKWIA, or someone who was trying to do the Supervisor's job).
As feared, he did let slip that, "I see you spoke with XXX, who indicated he had answered your questions" (XXX being the first supervisor with whom I spoke, and who was absolutely unpleasant to deal with), which all but indicated to me that - regardless of flexibility, rules, etc - I have little chance of successfully changing my award.
Fine. I can accept that.
What I found most interesting from my conversation, though, is that this Supervisor was adamant that he had never heard of MPM+25%, and that this simply is not done. And at that point in the conversation, I can tell his feathers got a little ruffled, as he started asking me if I am a TA, work for another airline, etc. Looking back over it, perhaps I could have been even more diplomatic, though off the top of my head I'm not sure how.
So, I've been left scratching my head, and at this point, my curiosity has been more than piqued. And while I would still love to change my award to the one posted above (not in this post, but several above it), I'm even more curious as to why the information I'm receiving from the AA side seems to differ greatly from many prior, posted accounts of AAward travel.
I was very polite and patient, and asked about fare bases, MPM, and in general said that I wanted to know more about the AA program so that I can be a better informed consumer -- e.g. the AAgent had said something about my change in travel taking me through an extra zone, which may be true as far as Sabre/AAcorn/Back End is concerned, but is not at all reflected in the One World & Other Airline Award Chart posted on the AA site here (http://www.aa.com/i18n/disclaimers/a...rtnerChart.jsp).
I did not bring up that many AAgents, though well-intentioned, do not seem to be very familiar with their own policies -- much less that several times I've received wildly divergent answers to the same question.
Despite my best efforts at being warm and polite, none of these questions/comments seemed to go over too well (note: I went to great lengths to ensure I did not come across as a "know-it-all", DYKWIA, or someone who was trying to do the Supervisor's job).
As feared, he did let slip that, "I see you spoke with XXX, who indicated he had answered your questions" (XXX being the first supervisor with whom I spoke, and who was absolutely unpleasant to deal with), which all but indicated to me that - regardless of flexibility, rules, etc - I have little chance of successfully changing my award.
Fine. I can accept that.
What I found most interesting from my conversation, though, is that this Supervisor was adamant that he had never heard of MPM+25%, and that this simply is not done. And at that point in the conversation, I can tell his feathers got a little ruffled, as he started asking me if I am a TA, work for another airline, etc. Looking back over it, perhaps I could have been even more diplomatic, though off the top of my head I'm not sure how.
So, I've been left scratching my head, and at this point, my curiosity has been more than piqued. And while I would still love to change my award to the one posted above (not in this post, but several above it), I'm even more curious as to why the information I'm receiving from the AA side seems to differ greatly from many prior, posted accounts of AAward travel.
Last edited by aa213bb; Sep 18, 2012 at 11:44 pm Reason: spelling
Sep 18, 2012, 11:42 pm
#818
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not here; there!
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold
Posts: 29,584
Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.1030 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/417)
The TB post you linked contains the following language:
"AP awards are governed by the governing carrier’s routing and mileage rules.
Maximum Permitted Mileage (MPM) (back to top)
When another airline is the governing carrier, AA must follow their routing rules and their MPM. Sabre/AACoRN will allow the routing to include up to 25% over the listed MPM without breaking the award. Sabre/AACoRN have the capability to determine the Maximum Permitted Mileage in addition to calculating if the extra 25% mileage allowance is applicable for an itinerary."
It sounds like that language supports the MPM + 25% rule when a partner carrier is the over-water carrier. Perhaps you can find out the file identifier that would enable an agent to pull up that language should you decide to try again.
Originally Posted by aa213bb
Update: spoke with another AAgent, and then a supervisor today, and was emphatically told by said Supervisor that "backtracking" is not allowed -- this somewhat conforms to what Jon has posted over at Traveling Better about the Most Direct Routing being necessary (http://www.travelingbetter.com/forum...6&postcount=63).
I was very polite and patient, and asked about fare bases, MPM, and in general said that I wanted to know more about the AA program so that I can be a better informed consumer -- e.g. the AAgent had said something about my change in travel taking me through an extra zone, which may be true as far as Sabre/AAcorn/Back End is concerned, but is not at all reflected in the One World & Other Airline Award Chart posted on the AA site here (http://www.aa.com/i18n/disclaimers/a...rtnerChart.jsp).
I did not bring up that many AAgents, though well-intentioned, do not seem to be very familiar with their own policies -- much less that several times I've received wildly divergent answers to the same question.
Despite my best efforts at being warm and polite, none of these questions/comments seemed to go over too well (note: I went to great lengths to ensure I did not come across as a "know-it-all", DYKWIA, or someone who was trying to do the Supervisor's job).
As feared, he did let slip that, "I see you spoke with XXX, who indicated he had answered your questions" (XXX being the first supervisor with whom I spoke, and who was absolutely unpleasant to deal with), which all but indicated to me that - regardless of flexibility, rules, etc - I have little chance of successfully changing my award.
Fine. I can accept that.
What I found most interesting from my conversation, though, is that this Supervisor was adamant that he had never heard of MPM+25%, and that this simply is not done. And at that point in the conversation, I can tell his feathers got a little ruffled, as he started asking my if I am a TA, work for another airline, etc. Looking back over it, perhaps I could have been even more diplomatic, though off the top of my head I'm not sure how.
So, I've been left scratching my head, and at this point, my curiosity has been more than piqued. And while I would still love to change my award to the one posted above (not in this post, but several above it), I'm even more curious as to why the information I'm receiving from the AA side seems to differ greatly from many prior, posted accounts of AAward travel.
I was very polite and patient, and asked about fare bases, MPM, and in general said that I wanted to know more about the AA program so that I can be a better informed consumer -- e.g. the AAgent had said something about my change in travel taking me through an extra zone, which may be true as far as Sabre/AAcorn/Back End is concerned, but is not at all reflected in the One World & Other Airline Award Chart posted on the AA site here (http://www.aa.com/i18n/disclaimers/a...rtnerChart.jsp).
I did not bring up that many AAgents, though well-intentioned, do not seem to be very familiar with their own policies -- much less that several times I've received wildly divergent answers to the same question.
Despite my best efforts at being warm and polite, none of these questions/comments seemed to go over too well (note: I went to great lengths to ensure I did not come across as a "know-it-all", DYKWIA, or someone who was trying to do the Supervisor's job).
As feared, he did let slip that, "I see you spoke with XXX, who indicated he had answered your questions" (XXX being the first supervisor with whom I spoke, and who was absolutely unpleasant to deal with), which all but indicated to me that - regardless of flexibility, rules, etc - I have little chance of successfully changing my award.
Fine. I can accept that.
What I found most interesting from my conversation, though, is that this Supervisor was adamant that he had never heard of MPM+25%, and that this simply is not done. And at that point in the conversation, I can tell his feathers got a little ruffled, as he started asking my if I am a TA, work for another airline, etc. Looking back over it, perhaps I could have been even more diplomatic, though off the top of my head I'm not sure how.
So, I've been left scratching my head, and at this point, my curiosity has been more than piqued. And while I would still love to change my award to the one posted above (not in this post, but several above it), I'm even more curious as to why the information I'm receiving from the AA side seems to differ greatly from many prior, posted accounts of AAward travel.
"AP awards are governed by the governing carrier’s routing and mileage rules.
Maximum Permitted Mileage (MPM) (back to top)
When another airline is the governing carrier, AA must follow their routing rules and their MPM. Sabre/AACoRN will allow the routing to include up to 25% over the listed MPM without breaking the award. Sabre/AACoRN have the capability to determine the Maximum Permitted Mileage in addition to calculating if the extra 25% mileage allowance is applicable for an itinerary."
It sounds like that language supports the MPM + 25% rule when a partner carrier is the over-water carrier. Perhaps you can find out the file identifier that would enable an agent to pull up that language should you decide to try again.
Sep 18, 2012, 11:47 pm
#819
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
As I am still very much a neophyte learning my way about, would you mind being more specific -- what is a "File Identifier"?
Sep 18, 2012, 11:54 pm
#820
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not here; there!
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold
Posts: 29,584
Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8530/5.0.0.1030 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/417)
The language that was quoted exists somewhere in AA's computer system where agents should be able to read it. The "file identifier" is just my generic term for whatever it is that an agent needs to pull up and read that language.
Originally Posted by aa213bb
As I am still very much a neophyte learning my way about, would you mind being more specific -- what is a "File Identifier"?
Sep 19, 2012, 12:33 am
#821
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,097
The explanation is that one cannot "backtrack", even when using a NA Gateway. The Supervisor, despite my stating this is a valid CX itinerary, continued to maintain that an additional 32.5k miles are needed for this. He said that, despite the chart online only stating that 67.5k are needed (and that one must fly transpac); he also was very vehement in proclaiming that this routing is invalid, as it violates the MPM.
Am I wrong here? Is he?
Am I wrong here? Is he?
LAX AA X/NYC CX X/HKG CX BKK Q4.25 20M8842.80JS NUC8847.05
END ROE1.00 XFLAX4.5JFK4.5
However, I-class "discounted" fares have a published routing 188 that state
DOM ROUTE VALIDATION APPLIES WITHIN ORIG/DEST COUNTRIES
1. LAX-HKG-KA/CX-BKK;
your routing would violate this route.
I have no idea what AAdvantage uses when there are multiple routings available for the same cabin on the same O&D.
Incidentally, all first class fares (F and A inventory) are under the MPM system.
In any case, the "no backtracking" or "most efficient" explanation, as Austinrunner points out, makes no sense.
Sep 19, 2012, 1:16 am
#822
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518
For a "J" ticket, no, and the evidence you can get from pricing a LAX-JFK-HKG-BKK revenue "JS" fare-basis ticket, which prices as follows:
LAX AA X/NYC CX X/HKG CX BKK Q4.25 20M8842.80JS NUC8847.05
END ROE1.00 XFLAX4.5JFK4.5
However, I-class "discounted" fares have a published routing 188 that state
DOM ROUTE VALIDATION APPLIES WITHIN ORIG/DEST COUNTRIES
1. LAX-HKG-KA/CX-BKK;
your routing would violate this route.
I have no idea what AAdvantage uses when there are multiple routings available for the same cabin on the same O&D.
Incidentally, all first class fares (F and A inventory) are under the MPM system.
In any case, the "no backtracking" or "most efficient" explanation, as Austinrunner points out, makes no sense.
LAX AA X/NYC CX X/HKG CX BKK Q4.25 20M8842.80JS NUC8847.05
END ROE1.00 XFLAX4.5JFK4.5
However, I-class "discounted" fares have a published routing 188 that state
DOM ROUTE VALIDATION APPLIES WITHIN ORIG/DEST COUNTRIES
1. LAX-HKG-KA/CX-BKK;
your routing would violate this route.
I have no idea what AAdvantage uses when there are multiple routings available for the same cabin on the same O&D.
Incidentally, all first class fares (F and A inventory) are under the MPM system.
In any case, the "no backtracking" or "most efficient" explanation, as Austinrunner points out, makes no sense.
My head is spinning; seems I should be able to do this, but they (at least 2 AA Supervisors) are adamant that adding a JFK stopover necessitates an additional 32.5k mile award.
???
Sep 20, 2012, 7:07 pm
#823
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: DFW
Programs: AA 1M
Posts: 31,474
Sep 20, 2012, 10:59 pm
#825
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Here, there … you know how it goes.
Posts: 1,518