Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Mar 19, 2019, 9:27 am
#841
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,186
Mar 19, 2019, 10:40 am
#842
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Mar 19, 2019, 11:41 am
#843
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 289
I was a victim of fraud back in December '18. I was able to phone AAdvantage before the passenger flew and her ticket was cancelled. I was told that "Security" would be in touch within a few days. Three months later and I've not heard a peep out of AA and my miles are still missing. Have called AAdvantage customer service 5 times but each time they tell me I need to just wait. Any suggestions for expediting this?
Mar 19, 2019, 11:51 am
#844
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Mar 19, 2019, 2:23 pm
#845
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATL
Programs: DL PM, 2+MM, AA Gold 1+MM, HH Diamond, MHG Silver,
Posts: 233
OP here with an update. After getting absolutely nowhere with AA for a couple of months, low and behold, one business day after posting here I got an email from AA Corporate Security. Coincidence or are they monitoring this forum? They are asking me to file a police report then they will consider redepositing the miles. Looks like progress at last.
Just curious however - what did AA Security want you to report? Since you called before the trip was taken, and AA Security cancelled the ticket before the flight was taken, in theory the miles weren't stolen from you as you prevented the theft.
Hopefully, your local Police Department is patient with you and will spend the time to take a report about an attempted theft that took place months ago that you were able to prevent (and on the internet no less).
Mar 19, 2019, 4:05 pm
#846
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
While the exact crime will differ depending on jurisdiction, the general crime of theft or wire fraud was complete when the bad guy transferred the miles from OP's account without OP's permission. Whether OP caught it before the ticket was flown and whether the miles are restored to him is irrelevant.
The reason for requiring a report is not so much because AA cares whether some local police department looses the hounds (not likely) but because making a false statement to AA is only actionable in the most theoretical sense while making a false statement to law enforcement is generally taken quite seriously. Thus, less likely that OP is a fraudster.
The reason for requiring a report is not so much because AA cares whether some local police department looses the hounds (not likely) but because making a false statement to AA is only actionable in the most theoretical sense while making a false statement to law enforcement is generally taken quite seriously. Thus, less likely that OP is a fraudster.
Mar 19, 2019, 5:59 pm
#847
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
OP here with an update. After getting absolutely nowhere with AA for a couple of months, low and behold, one business day after posting here I got an email from AA Corporate Security. Coincidence or are they monitoring this forum? They are asking me to file a police report then they will consider redepositing the miles. Looks like progress at last.
Not to mention NATs. Although presumably ISPs and other CG-NAT systems maintain records.
Mar 20, 2019, 8:22 am
#848
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
I'm sympathetic on that front as well, but just something ya gotta do.
Mar 20, 2019, 9:49 am
#850
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
If you want to report a violation, I would guess that using the AA web site's "Contact AA" to send a message to Customer Relations would get your report forwarded to the right department.
Last edited by JDiver; Mar 20, 2019 at 11:14 am Reason: Replace deleted post with original post / question
Mar 20, 2019, 10:26 am
#851
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 289
OP - congratulations on making some progress! Best of luck the rest of the way.
Just curious however - what did AA Security want you to report? Since you called before the trip was taken, and AA Security cancelled the ticket before the flight was taken, in theory the miles weren't stolen from you as you prevented the theft.
Hopefully, your local Police Department is patient with you and will spend the time to take a report about an attempted theft that took place months ago that you were able to prevent (and on the internet no less).
Just curious however - what did AA Security want you to report? Since you called before the trip was taken, and AA Security cancelled the ticket before the flight was taken, in theory the miles weren't stolen from you as you prevented the theft.
Hopefully, your local Police Department is patient with you and will spend the time to take a report about an attempted theft that took place months ago that you were able to prevent (and on the internet no less).
Mar 20, 2019, 11:17 am
#852
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
At least, the first part of that has been my experience.
Mar 20, 2019, 11:24 am
#853
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: South Florida
Programs: AA LTG (EXP), Hilton Silver (Dia), Marriott LTP (PP), SPG LTG (P) > MPG LTPP
Posts: 11,329
The hassle will be going to a police station, filling out a report (which they might try to discourage your filing) which will merely take up space in a file drawer - and provide you with documentation AA “needs” to validate their process.
At least, the first part of that has been my experience.
At least, the first part of that has been my experience.
Mar 20, 2019, 11:35 am
#854
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: CUR
Posts: 2,170
Mar 20, 2019, 12:02 pm
#855
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LAX, BOS, and Seat 1A
Programs: DL Plat, VS Gold, UA Plat, VX Gold (RIP), AS MVP 75K, Starriot Plat, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 387
It pertains to SWU barter, which i'd argue doesn't really screw them out of money but is still violative.