Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Mar 16, 2019, 9:48 am
#811
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
Hard evidence? No. It's not like carriers are publishing the fraction of accounts closed due to fraud. Subjectively I can offer that the topic of account actions receives a lot fewer posts in the DL forum than in the AA forum.
Mar 16, 2019, 7:10 pm
#814
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LAX, BOS, and Seat 1A
Programs: DL Plat, VS Gold, UA Plat, VX Gold (RIP), AS MVP 75K, Starriot Plat, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 387
I would rank it as follows: AA >>>> AS > DL > UA
Mar 16, 2019, 7:59 pm
#815
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
Things like private email addresses, repeats of prior advice but in a consolidated fashion, offers to use even more confidential contact information IF the recipient is acting appropriately (all a guess,but since it is a favor, I think it is fair to limit in any way the provider of the free information deems fit).
Mar 16, 2019, 8:40 pm
#816
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
Things like private email addresses, repeats of prior advice but in a consolidated fashion, offers to use even more confidential contact information IF the recipient is acting appropriately (all a guess,but since it is a favor, I think it is fair to limit in any way the provider of the free information deems fit).
It makes no sense to me as to why AA would not have a direct way for these folks to get answers... even if the answer is 'review in progress'. I am not suggesting AA provide any of their methods or processes, but, from a customer pov, it would be good if these folks could just find out if their request has 'fallen through the cracks' or still in progress.
Mar 16, 2019, 8:46 pm
#817
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The FT AA forum, until it no longer wants me.
Programs: CK or bust
Posts: 1,913
Sure... I guess that makes sense.
It makes no sense to me as to why AA would not have a direct way for these folks to get answers... even if the answer is 'review in progress'. I am not suggesting AA provide any of their methods or processes, but, from a customer pov, it would be good if these folks could just find out if their request has 'fallen through the cracks' or still in progress.
It makes no sense to me as to why AA would not have a direct way for these folks to get answers... even if the answer is 'review in progress'. I am not suggesting AA provide any of their methods or processes, but, from a customer pov, it would be good if these folks could just find out if their request has 'fallen through the cracks' or still in progress.
Disclaimer: I have absolutely no concrete knowledge of this. My opinions in this regard are
Mar 16, 2019, 10:10 pm
#818
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: DFW/DAL
Programs: AA Lifetime PLT, AS MVPG, HH Diamond, NCL Platinum Plus, MSC Diamond
Posts: 21,422
Mar 16, 2019, 10:29 pm
#819
Join Date: Jun 2011
Programs: United Premier Platinum
Posts: 638
Devil's advocate here, but from AA's perspective these people are more or less close to being dead to them as customers. Again on the theme of "presumed guilty until proven innocent," the customer experience of people who have been contacted for an audit is probably the furthest thing from AA's mind. This does make false-positives squirm unnecessarily, but as others have mentioned these are in reality a minority of cases.
Mar 16, 2019, 11:02 pm
#820
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicago
Programs: AA- EXP UA - Silver SPG- PLT Marriott- PLT
Posts: 759
and just how would AA make the connection between a user name on FlyerTalk and someone’s actual name?
Mar 17, 2019, 6:52 am
#821
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
It makes no sense to me as to why AA would not have a direct way for these folks to get answers... even if the answer is 'review in progress'. I am not suggesting AA provide any of their methods or processes, but, from a customer pov, it would be good if these folks could just find out if their request has 'fallen through the cracks' or still in progress.
Mar 17, 2019, 8:06 am
#822
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CLT
Programs: AA EXP; Avis PC; Hertz PC; Marriott LT Gold; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,133
Looking at most FTers post history, there are usually comments about ar least a couple of flights they were on, often with seat numbers (PDB thread, downgrade comments, rolling delay complaints, etc.). I would imagine AA can search a database and piece together who that person is.
Mar 17, 2019, 8:20 am
#823
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
Posts: 812
I completely agree. My understanding is that there was a time when issues with people violating AAdvantage rules as well as people whose accounts were hacked were handled by a specialized department that did try to treat people with respect (at least until after concluding they were fraudsters), but once this function was handled by corporate security, that changed, and now it seems everyone they deal with is treated contemptuously unless and until corporate security is satisfied. I may be hopeless naive, but it seems to me it's better to start out treating everyone with respect and presumed innocent, even if the vast majority are guilty, to avoid creating a bad impression on those who are victims and could be retained as valued customers. To put it another way, I don't see how it hurts to start out treating the guilty as if they were innocent, and it clearly helps to treat the innocent as such from the start.
Mar 17, 2019, 9:57 am
#824
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
Looking at most FTers post history, there are usually comments about ar least a couple of flights they were on, often with seat numbers (PDB thread, downgrade comments, rolling delay complaints, etc.). I would imagine AA can search a database and piece together who that person is.
Mar 17, 2019, 2:15 pm
#825
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Programs: UA 1K, AA Lifetime Platinum, DL Platinum, Honors Diamond, Bonvoy Titanium, Hertz Platinum
Posts: 7,969
It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to make sure that AA is properly punished for however you perceive they've wronged you by wasting a lot of their resources, then that could work. However, if you're trying to get favorable resolution to some problem that they're working on, then not so much. If there is any discretion involved in how they eventually resolve your issue, then doing something like the above is not likely to help you. It may hasten a response, but perhaps not in your favor.
I still think this is a valid point and suggestion, which hasn't been answered in this thread. Perhaps JonNYC knows more specifics offline, in which case I'll defer to him.
I can easily see a situation that's along the lines of what rrapynot has posted, whereby there some kind of investigation ongoing about the unauthorized award ticket, and where the ticket itself is just sitting there in cancelled-but-not-refunded status. If rrapynot calls AA and asks about the status of the fraud investigation, AA could easily respond reflexively with "you just have to wait," without looking at the ticket (because that wasn't the question asked). That may or may not be completely independent of the status of the ticket in question, which may just be sitting there waiting to be refunded. However, if rrapynot asked AA to refund the ticket and they said "We can't. It's locked by corporate security and you just have to wait for them to contact you" then that would be a different matter. But I don't think we know (at least based on what is posted in this thread) which situation it is.
I can easily see a situation that's along the lines of what rrapynot has posted, whereby there some kind of investigation ongoing about the unauthorized award ticket, and where the ticket itself is just sitting there in cancelled-but-not-refunded status. If rrapynot calls AA and asks about the status of the fraud investigation, AA could easily respond reflexively with "you just have to wait," without looking at the ticket (because that wasn't the question asked). That may or may not be completely independent of the status of the ticket in question, which may just be sitting there waiting to be refunded. However, if rrapynot asked AA to refund the ticket and they said "We can't. It's locked by corporate security and you just have to wait for them to contact you" then that would be a different matter. But I don't think we know (at least based on what is posted in this thread) which situation it is.
Last edited by Steve M; Mar 17, 2019 at 6:53 pm