Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Mar 15, 2019, 8:55 am
#796
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
I can't tell if this is intentionally bad advice or just a lack of understanding of the likely situation. But, for the record, this would not be consistent with the advice given in this thread over that last 10+ years.
P.S. - Based on Post #20 in the "No compensation for Mechanical Delay" thread I now have a clearer opinion. (I am lousy at linking - sorry.)
P.S. - Based on Post #20 in the "No compensation for Mechanical Delay" thread I now have a clearer opinion. (I am lousy at linking - sorry.)
The general advice in this thread is listen to JonNYC and be honest and complete with AA.
Mar 15, 2019, 9:14 am
#797
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York
Programs: AA EXP 1.0mm, not sure where I am with hotels these days
Posts: 2,795
Since I went through the effort: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30890318-post20.html, and yep. The link is in the number in the upper right of the post, so right click on that and copy or click on it and copy the url of the post that opens.
The general advice in this thread is listen to JonNYC and be honest and complete with AA.
The general advice in this thread is listen to JonNYC and be honest and complete with AA.
Mar 15, 2019, 9:15 am
#798
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LAX, BOS, and Seat 1A
Programs: DL Plat, VS Gold, UA Plat, VX Gold (RIP), AS MVP 75K, Starriot Plat, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 387
Since I went through the effort: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30890318-post20.html, and yep. The link is in the number in the upper right of the post, so right click on that and copy or click on it and copy the url of the post that opens.
The general advice in this thread is listen to JonNYC and be honest and complete with AA.
The general advice in this thread is listen to JonNYC and be honest and complete with AA.
And what is that supposed to do if they never respond?
Mar 15, 2019, 9:24 am
#800
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: South Florida
Programs: AA LTG (EXP), Hilton Silver (Dia), Marriott LTP (PP), SPG LTG (P) > MPG LTPP
Posts: 11,329
I don't know his lineage, but he has been very helpful in addressing situations with AA and can be counted on to steer you in the right direction, even if it's not what the OP wanted to hear. His PMs are much more helpful than his posts (posts being very short), but he has helped many FTers over the years. You might want to search on his name to see some of the many subjects he has helped with.
Mar 15, 2019, 12:11 pm
#801
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The FT AA forum, until it no longer wants me.
Programs: CK or bust
Posts: 1,913
A question often asked during the first year of FlyerTalk University -
JonNYCis a former FT forum moderator and often compared to the Banksie or the Red Forman of the AA Flyertalk forum by enpremiere. He has stated in a past public post that he is not an employee of American and that it would likely be the last place that they would seek employment so perhaps "insider" in the context of very high-level knowledge is a better way to put it.
While a fair number of posts on the AA forum are simply conjecture, theories, or know-it-all rubbish, JonNYC has historically provided advanced notice as well as more factually accurate information on a variety of topics that are often misunderstood or just very niche in nature, this particular thread being no exception to that. If your post sufficiently reaches the bowels of accuracy or credibility, you might even make a spot of shame on his Twitter feed, no doubt accompanied by a friendly comment to boot.
<redacted>
JonNYC
While a fair number of posts on the AA forum are simply conjecture, theories, or know-it-all rubbish, JonNYC has historically provided advanced notice as well as more factually accurate information on a variety of topics that are often misunderstood or just very niche in nature, this particular thread being no exception to that. If your post sufficiently reaches the bowels of accuracy or credibility, you might even make a spot of shame on his Twitter feed, no doubt accompanied by a friendly comment to boot.
<redacted>
Last edited by JDiver; Mar 15, 2019 at 8:44 pm Reason: Discussion of moderator actions
Mar 15, 2019, 1:19 pm
#802
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: AA
Posts: 14,733
A question often asked during the first year of FlyerTalk University -
JonNYC is a former FT forum moderator and often compared to the Banksie or the Red Forman of the AA Flyertalk forum by enpremiere. He has stated in a past public post that he is not an employee of American and that it would likely be the last place that they would seek employment so perhaps "insider" in the context of very high-level knowledge is a better way to put it.
While a fair number of posts on the AA forum are simply conjecture, theories, or know-it-all rubbish, JonNYC has historically provided advanced notice as well as more factually accurate information on a variety of topics that are often misunderstood or just very niche in nature, this particular thread being no exception to that. If your post sufficiently reaches the bowels of accuracy or credibility, you might even make a spot of shame on his Twitter feed, no doubt accompanied by a friendly comment to boot.
<Redacted>
JonNYC is a former FT forum moderator and often compared to the Banksie or the Red Forman of the AA Flyertalk forum by enpremiere. He has stated in a past public post that he is not an employee of American and that it would likely be the last place that they would seek employment so perhaps "insider" in the context of very high-level knowledge is a better way to put it.
While a fair number of posts on the AA forum are simply conjecture, theories, or know-it-all rubbish, JonNYC has historically provided advanced notice as well as more factually accurate information on a variety of topics that are often misunderstood or just very niche in nature, this particular thread being no exception to that. If your post sufficiently reaches the bowels of accuracy or credibility, you might even make a spot of shame on his Twitter feed, no doubt accompanied by a friendly comment to boot.
<Redacted>
Last edited by JDiver; Mar 15, 2019 at 8:45 pm Reason: Redacted previously deleted post content
Mar 15, 2019, 2:25 pm
#806
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Mar 15, 2019, 2:27 pm
#807
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: LAX, BOS, and Seat 1A
Programs: DL Plat, VS Gold, UA Plat, VX Gold (RIP), AS MVP 75K, Starriot Plat, Hertz President's Circle
Posts: 387
Mar 15, 2019, 3:52 pm
#808
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The FT AA forum, until it no longer wants me.
Programs: CK or bust
Posts: 1,913
Mar 15, 2019, 8:48 pm
#809
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
JonNYC has inside information to the point a number of bloggers seek him out, quote him and attribute material to him to further validate their information abandon its sourcing.
Moderator hat on: Now, back on topic...
Moderator hat on: Now, back on topic...
Mar 16, 2019, 9:42 am
#810
Join Date: Jun 2011
Programs: United Premier Platinum
Posts: 638
Other than the CC controversy involving AA trades, is there any hard evidence that AA pursues/punishes rule violators more than the other major US carriers? Would think that all of them have a pretty big incentive to do so, but is it not as consistent enforcement as AA?