Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
May 11, 2018, 6:56 am
#646
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
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May 11, 2018, 8:06 am
#647
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
Join Date: Sep 1999
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May 11, 2018, 9:19 am
#648
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
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I am curious, how can they go against the brokers? Selling miles breaks no laws and is not a criminal act. It is a contract violation that allows AA the various financial remedies applied in case of contract violation (and the truth is that the T&C's pretty much make AA the owners of the miles with legal rights to arbitrarily do whatever they want with regards to miles and mileage accounts), but the brokers have no contractual relationship AA. What can AA possibly do to them?
The problem, of course, is chasing the people down to sue the right entity and making it worth the legal expense. The practical issue, as another poster noted, is that many of the sellers aren't really travelers ... they got their miles through some credit cards/manufactured spend.
May 11, 2018, 10:02 am
#649
Join Date: May 2008
Location: PHL (kinda, no airport is really close)
Programs: AA Exp, but not sure for how long. Enterprise Platinum woo-hoo!
Posts: 4,550
I think all the legal theorizing is pretty pointless.
AA has all the lawyers they need to figure this out, and it would be offensive to us only if they were taking groundless legal action to pressure people into submission.
I'm sure a lot of us engage in technically prohibited conduct, even if it's as little as "I have some extra miles, so I'll buy your plane ticket to the bridge tournament and you pay for the hotel." But I'm fairly confident that AA is not engaging in Big Brother tactics.
I haven't read every post in this and related threads, but I doubt there are too many posts with people giving all the details of transactions for which they were improperly sanctioned. Most people aren't so much sorry for what they did as they are sorry that they got caught. People doing purely private transactions, with no third party involved and a limited number of counterparties, aren't going to get caught. I'm guessing that AA and the other point/miles programs ask themselves "Are we really sure this was a violation" before taking action.
AA has all the lawyers they need to figure this out, and it would be offensive to us only if they were taking groundless legal action to pressure people into submission.
I'm sure a lot of us engage in technically prohibited conduct, even if it's as little as "I have some extra miles, so I'll buy your plane ticket to the bridge tournament and you pay for the hotel." But I'm fairly confident that AA is not engaging in Big Brother tactics.
I haven't read every post in this and related threads, but I doubt there are too many posts with people giving all the details of transactions for which they were improperly sanctioned. Most people aren't so much sorry for what they did as they are sorry that they got caught. People doing purely private transactions, with no third party involved and a limited number of counterparties, aren't going to get caught. I'm guessing that AA and the other point/miles programs ask themselves "Are we really sure this was a violation" before taking action.
May 11, 2018, 3:05 pm
#650
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
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May 11, 2018, 4:08 pm
#651
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 6,411
I sincerely hope this is not the norm. If AA knows that someone has an illicit award ticket, and they intentionally let that person fly the outbound, well, that's an award that a legit customer is not able to book. Surely AA has better ways to handle illicit tickets than to let someone use half of the value.
May 11, 2018, 4:17 pm
#652
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I sincerely hope this is not the norm. If AA knows that someone has an illicit award ticket, and they intentionally let that person fly the outbound, well, that's an award that a legit customer is not able to book. Surely AA has better ways to handle illicit tickets than to let someone use half of the value.
May 11, 2018, 4:44 pm
#653
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
I sincerely hope this is not the norm. If AA knows that someone has an illicit award ticket, and they intentionally let that person fly the outbound, well, that's an award that a legit customer is not able to book. Surely AA has better ways to handle illicit tickets than to let someone use half of the value.
May 11, 2018, 4:57 pm
#654
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA & UK -- AA EXP 3.5MM, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Plat, Avis President's Club
Posts: 6,411
If they pull the ticket before use then the airline pretty much has no chance to collect from the victim. If they wait until they are trying to get home/back to work, then the victim is likely to pay walk up fares to get back. Close to how counterfeit bills are handled, the last person caught in possession is out the money. So if you're a merchant and get's a bad bill, pass it quickly!
May 11, 2018, 6:16 pm
#656
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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You are welcome to fill in the gaps if you like.
BTW, welcome back.
May 11, 2018, 8:50 pm
#657
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Posts: 8,937
I agree. I understand AA being suspicious that an AAdvantage member whose account redeemed an expensive award and claims to have been hacked may be lying, but I would hope that AA would be able to institute a process where such situations could be resolved fairly quickly, and with the AAdvantage member being immediately informed of the steps to follow (e.g., police report, etc.). As I mentioned a few posts back, my BA account was hacked and BA took many months to resolve it, with zero communication with me, so the problem isn't unique to AA, but that's no excuse for AA not improving things, if for no other reason than to retain a loyal customer victimized by a hacker.
May 12, 2018, 7:00 am
#658
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
I don't have any knowledge on the subject, but I can imagine non-saavy, infrequent flyers who don't realize they are buying from a broker, are buying an award ticket, etc. I've used consolidators in the distant past, and could see someone thinking the web site offering cheap business class fares is some sort of consolidator. I often see ads in the travel section of major newspapers offering discount first/business tickets to Europe, Asia, Australia. I've not looked into them, I don't know if they are legitimate TAs or brokers. I'd hope the newspaper does some sort of vetting, but I don't know.
I agree. I understand AA being suspicious that an AAdvantage member whose account redeemed an expensive award and claims to have been hacked may be lying, but I would hope that AA would be able to institute a process where such situations could be resolved fairly quickly, and with the AAdvantage member being immediately informed of the steps to follow (e.g., police report, etc.). As I mentioned a few posts back, my BA account was hacked and BA took many months to resolve it, with zero communication with me, so the problem isn't unique to AA, but that's no excuse for AA not improving things, if for no other reason than to retain a loyal customer victimized by a hacker.
I agree. I understand AA being suspicious that an AAdvantage member whose account redeemed an expensive award and claims to have been hacked may be lying, but I would hope that AA would be able to institute a process where such situations could be resolved fairly quickly, and with the AAdvantage member being immediately informed of the steps to follow (e.g., police report, etc.). As I mentioned a few posts back, my BA account was hacked and BA took many months to resolve it, with zero communication with me, so the problem isn't unique to AA, but that's no excuse for AA not improving things, if for no other reason than to retain a loyal customer victimized by a hacker.
Oct 9, 2018, 4:37 pm
#660
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,231
I think it's sketchy that you were somewhere without your wallet, but that's me. 
I could certainly understand why this might have set of flags internally.
Hopefully you hear from corporate security soon. They don't work weekends, from what I understand.
Perhaps they're reviewing your mileage redemptions to try and match against a list they somehow got from a known broker. It seems like by the time one does hear from corporate security, they already know what the deal is, so I imagine it does take them a little bit of time to get there.
I could certainly understand why this might have set of flags internally.Hopefully you hear from corporate security soon. They don't work weekends, from what I understand.
Perhaps they're reviewing your mileage redemptions to try and match against a list they somehow got from a known broker. It seems like by the time one does hear from corporate security, they already know what the deal is, so I imagine it does take them a little bit of time to get there.