Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Apr 30, 2018, 11:16 pm
#572
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
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May 1, 2018, 1:05 am
#573
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP, HH Diamond, Owner of 2,000 TWA shares
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May 1, 2018, 7:23 am
#574
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So, back to what seems to be a valid question if the OP ever comes back to answer.
Were US Air miles bought, sold, or traded? Or did anyone he gave AA or US tickets to, ever engage in buying, selling, or trading of AA or US miles.
I do not think having an account on the site indicated, by itself, would be justification for AA to take 500K miles. I would think the normal options would be all or none, and if they are taking part of the miles, they actually believe a transfer took place involving AA or US miles and are penalizing based on the size of the transaction(s) involved. (Notice: I did not say something exactly 500K). The pattern of this complaint is not unusual. The original complaint did not include all of the pertinent information.
Were US Air miles bought, sold, or traded? Or did anyone he gave AA or US tickets to, ever engage in buying, selling, or trading of AA or US miles.
I do not think having an account on the site indicated, by itself, would be justification for AA to take 500K miles. I would think the normal options would be all or none, and if they are taking part of the miles, they actually believe a transfer took place involving AA or US miles and are penalizing based on the size of the transaction(s) involved. (Notice: I did not say something exactly 500K). The pattern of this complaint is not unusual. The original complaint did not include all of the pertinent information.
May 1, 2018, 8:57 am
#576
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
I see this as a kind of "shot across the bow".
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
May 1, 2018, 9:37 am
#577
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
I see this as a kind of "shot across the bow".
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
Well .... the facts here still seem a little strange. This is the first report I recall where someone was penalized without being asked up front for an explanation but maybe there was no need to ask questions if his identify was out there. Second, if there weren't AA miles involved -- well maybe US miles as others have suggested -- not sure how AA would get involved. It seems AA must have had some reason to state he "has been assessed a penalty of the amount offered for sale or barter (500,0000 AAdvantage miles) for violating AAdvantage program rules." Seems they thought 500,000 miles had been offered for sale or barter. Perhaps they were wrong but not sure absurd is the right term ....
That being said, I agree this highlights the selling/buying/bartering airline miles can be problematic. Unfortunately, the blogs focused on credit cards - OP said he received the miles from "churning 10+ Citi and Barclays credit cards" -- who has that time! -- tend to incite such behavior. Another thing it highlights, I don't think we have any examples where refusing to cooperate with AA's investigators has turned out well.
May 1, 2018, 9:49 am
#578
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
I see this as a kind of "shot across the bow".
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
May 1, 2018, 9:51 am
#579
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Not only is the one odd because, by OP's account, there was no investigation which sought his response and because AA penalized him 500K miles rather than closing his account and stripping his status as part of it. In past settings, the penalty of less than everything was, if not negotiated, at least the product of some discussion.
In rereading the OP itself, the concern here is that OP suggests that there were additional conversations with OP. But, OP does not recount those.
In rereading the OP itself, the concern here is that OP suggests that there were additional conversations with OP. But, OP does not recount those.
May 1, 2018, 9:52 am
#581
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: TUL
Programs: AA EXP 2MM; Marriott Titanium; Hilton Diamond; Hyatt Explorist; Vistana 5* Elite; Nat'l Exec Elite
Posts: 6,177
May 1, 2018, 9:58 am
#582
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,313
Well .... the facts here still seem a little strange. This is the first report I recall where someone was penalized without being asked up front for an explanation but maybe there was no need to ask questions if his identify was out there. Second, if there weren't AA miles involved -- well maybe US miles as others have suggested -- not sure how AA would get involved. It seems AA must have had some reason to state he "has been assessed a penalty of the amount offered for sale or barter (500,0000 AAdvantage miles) for violating AAdvantage program rules." Seems they thought 500,000 miles had been offered for sale or barter. Perhaps they were wrong but not sure absurd is the right term ....
That being said, I agree this highlights the selling/buying/bartering airline miles can be problematic. Unfortunately, the blogs focused on credit cards - OP said he received the miles from "churning 10+ Citi and Barclays credit cards" -- who has that time! -- tend to incite such behavior. Another thing it highlights, I don't think we have any examples where refusing to cooperate with AA's investigators has turned out well.
That being said, I agree this highlights the selling/buying/bartering airline miles can be problematic. Unfortunately, the blogs focused on credit cards - OP said he received the miles from "churning 10+ Citi and Barclays credit cards" -- who has that time! -- tend to incite such behavior. Another thing it highlights, I don't think we have any examples where refusing to cooperate with AA's investigators has turned out well.
May 1, 2018, 10:22 am
#583
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
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Maybe (likely?) AA sent the usual email asking questions and the OP deleted it without reading it or it went to spam. We have always been told on here that AA already knows the answers to the questions it asks in the email, and the first email is asking the suspect for their version of events. If that's what happened here, and there was a typical corporate security questions email sent but no answer given to AA, then they deduct miles for whatever they identified in the missing email, and send the email the OP posted as a way of closing up the case. Just an idea that would explain what appears as this unusual "missing step." this time. I doubt AA went rogue on their process. Seems the OP did though, maybe not with AA miles, but definitely rogue with others. Don't ALL the programs, airlines and hotels, ban what he admitted he has done multiple times? All it took is one mistake and the house of cards collapsed. Wish we knew what he did that was AA-related. Maybe he converted the AA miles to hotel points and sold the hotel points?
May 1, 2018, 10:38 am
#584
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 31,452
I see this as a kind of "shot across the bow".
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
AA RP sees an offer to sell, buy or barter (some other) airline miles. They identify the individual as an Aadvantage member. They hypothesize the member might have similarly offered to sell, buy or barter Aadvantage miles elsewhere. Thus, they provisionally deduct 500,000 miles, send a stink-o-gram (just to get the person's attention) then wait to see what the person says.
Crickets.
A week or so later, the deduction is final.
A year later, the OP posts here to bring the AAEcosystem's attention to this miscarriage of justice. All it does for those of us who have followed the "AA took my miles" threads is to add the additional data point that offers of selling / buying / bartering any airline miles can be problematic..
May 1, 2018, 11:04 am
#585
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Posts: 11,247
AA has to have more info than something like this. Maybe it was a flag, but there is no way just flying friends and family would cause this as it is allowed by the T&C
Last edited by Antarius; May 1, 2018 at 11:21 am